How to Help Men Be More Emotive – with Mark Groves

Dr. Mindy  

On this episode of The recenter podcast Have I got a heartfelt conversation for you with an incredibly beautiful man. His name is Mark groves. And what he calls himself and I love this is that he’s exploring and philosophizing, the complexities of human connection. And that’s exactly what we talk about. We go into detail on how you can create relationships that max your values. What do you do when there are challenges in your relationships? How do you take radical responsibility for your relationships. And one piece of this conversation that really got my brain excited, is how we can be curious about our relationships as possible tools for our own expansion for our own growth. So there is so much to learn in this conversation with Mark. And I would say that that one of my favorite pieces is around the mid part of the conversation, we really talked about how men and women communicate differently. And as a lot of you know, I’ve been really focused on how to create a world where women feel heard. And what I learned in this conversation with Mark is we we also have to create a world where men feel heard where men can be more emotive. And so this is an incredible conversation where we explore that. And I would say that neither of us have the answers. But we all had, we both had a lot of questions. And we had a lot of insight in talking to each other about how do we create a world where women feel heard, and men are allowed to be more emotional. And this is going to be such a gift to so many of the relationships in your life. So Mark groves, founder of create the love, I really truly from the bottom of my heart, I’m excited to bring this episode to you enjoy

Dr. Mindy  

a doctor Vinnie here and welcome to season four of the resetter podcast. Please know that this podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself. Again, if you have a passion for learning, if you’re looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you. Enjoy.

Dr. Mindy  

I’m just gonna I’m gonna jump in and say thank you for being here. Mark, I really appreciate you coming on the resetter podcast. We’re excited to I’m excited to have this chat with you.

Mark Groves  

Oh, my God pumped to be here. I can’t wait to jam, no idea what you’re going to ask rich. Excellent, enter. That’s the event

Dr. Mindy  

that’s see. Let me tell you, I there’s a lot of places I want to go with this conversation. But I’ve, I’m in the process of writing my fifth book. And I’m totally geeking out on words. And so as I was doing a gentle preparation for this interview, there were a couple of words you use that just really sparked the interest of my brain. And let me start with the first phrasing, which is radical responsibility that you took radical responsibility for your life. What is that? And how do we all accomplish that?

Mark Groves  

Well, you know, I think the context of even taking responsibility for one’s life is pretty daunting, sometimes. Yeah, you know, it can it can feel overwhelming. And I think what’s going on unconsciously there is that responsibility, if you say, okay, everything that’s currently in my life is there because I’m saying yes to it. That’s a pretty basic fact.

Mark Groves  

But then, if you accept that fact, now you’re like, Well, shit, if I said yes to it, then that means I can say no to some things. And if I actually sit with the truth that I’m choosing everything in my life includes including my habits, my rituals, my reactivity, then that means I could have chosen differently. And I think that’s where we hit, usually an unconscious block. Because when you wake up to the idea that you have choice, radical responsibility that says, I’m not actually going to tolerate less than my best self, I’m not going to tolerate less than my most optimal potential, I’m not going to tolerate any behaviors that I know are actually not helpful to relationships, and not conducive to the type of life I want to create, and also not aligned with my values. So many of us are actually making choices day in and day out, that are not aligned with our values. And then we wonder why we’re anxious and depressed. Because the choices we’re we’re making are saying, I don’t actually even live the thing that is at my most core important to me. And so because when we’re aware of radical responsibility, we then can look back at our whole life

Mark Groves  

Usually unconsciously, and we go, oh, shoot, why did I choose those things then. And so most of us actually stopped there. And I would say that that is actually the source of so many addictions, whether that’s normalized ones, like, you know, our phones, or shopping, or sometimes food or even exercise, that one can be celebrated. Yeah, the we have these distractive techniques that are really about not paying attention to the dissonance that comes when you are making choices that don’t align with what you want and who you are.

Dr. Mindy  

Here’s an interesting part of what you just said, How many people do you think actually know what their values are?

Mark Groves  

You know, very few actually sit down and write that out. I remember I interviewed Stan Tackett, who’s like one of the world’s foremost psychologists and relationship experts. And he said, if you look at the main reason that relationships fail, it’s because people fail to make clear the agreements at the start. And so I don’t think till we have, till we continue to violate our own boundaries, or experience the violation of our boundaries, you know, maybe we’re dating someone toxic, maybe we are someone toxic, maybe we’re experiencing a drug addiction, or whatever it is, most of us think of rock bottoms as being something like waking up in a ditch or drinking too much, and crashing a car. But rock bottoms can be experienced in health and losing your job, and, but they don’t we wait for these deep moments of suffering before we change. And that’s when we recognize, oh, wait, there’s something out and because our society has normalized this idea that if you’re depressed or anxious, there’s something wrong with you. And you actually need to treat that. And I’m not saying there’s not a time and a place for intervention, that pharmaceutical interventions, but anxiety is actually an indicator that you’re not, you’re not actually living a life in alignment with what your values are, it’s also an indicator that you’re not expressing your core emotions, you’re not connected to one or more of them. And I think that’s rare to to be connected to our core emotions.

Dr. Mindy  

So I just had this really interesting thought, you know, there’s a lot of talk about how we came out of the pandemic. And everybody’s got a mental health challenge now that from the remnants of that, and if I take the definition of anxiety that you just gave, my thought is, the way I view the pandemic is it was a pattern interrupt. It was a moment where everybody was forced to sit down, and we had to sit there for so long, that we had to reevaluate our life. And then I’m wondering if we, as we’ve come out of the pandemic, if we had hunches about, we weren’t living in accordance with our values, relationships, that people were locked at home with that, that weren’t necessarily serving them anymore. And if we didn’t make those changes coming out of the pandemic, perhaps that’s a piece of why anxiety is is that at the peak is the people who didn’t, who saw glimpse of something that needed to change in their relationships, but actually haven’t have chosen to not change that.

Mark Groves  

So many of us exist in relationships, that we don’t have hard conversations, we let the relationship steer itself like a child, you know, we respond the same way and conflict that we learned, usually unconsciously, as kids, like, most of us don’t take responsibility for the relationship we want to create. We’re not even saying like, hey, I need to look, there’s a lot of people these days, at least the information is readily available when I was 20. If you were going through a breakup, you just listened to Boys to Men, you know, when you got sad, or whatever was out, I think God exists. I mean, Adele would have been a killer. I’m so glad that music was now there. But all joking aside, I think you’re right. First off the pandemic was an incredible psychological stress. It was a collective trauma. And I don’t mean just the experience of having to confront our mortality, which, like when you think about confronting mortality, we don’t look at it because the idea of confronting your mortality is too much for the system generally, because then we recognize our temporary time on this planet, which then when you look at people who are in palliative care, the Five Regrets of the Dying is a book written by brawny where she was a palliative care nurse. And she saw these five things that most people regretted when they got to death’s door. So we all experienced that. We also experienced, you know, a lot of like psychological techniques used to shape our behavior. That’s also there’s ethical. There’s always ethical considerations about the use of nudge tactics, which is what they call the psychological techniques used by public health. And so that actually has an impact on us. And you know, I think, for us not to look at So, what’s occurred and actually acknowledged that there has been a collective trauma and now what you’re saying about relationship? Yeah. COVID had people at home with relationships that they were often avoiding at their work, you know? And so it amplified what was already there. Yeah. And, and it also, for a lot of couples, they finally had time together, and they found resolution and they deepen their intimacy. And I mean, it really forced us to, we don’t normally spend 24 hours a day with our partner, which that’s not necessarily healthy, either, because there’s no balance of individuality. But I agree with what you said, there’s, there was a pause. And that pause we can use to start to question who we are, which is a healthy thing to start to be like, Oh, why do I do what I do? Why do I tolerate what I tolerate from myself? Yeah, people?

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah. I mean, I’m, I made a radical changes post coming out of the pandemic. And I was asked by asking myself that question of like, why am I doing this? What what what do I want the future to look like? Like, there was a lot of introspection that went through me. And one of the things about relationships that I a question I’ve been asking myself lately has been, what’s the purpose of, of relationships? You know, like, if we really think about it, human connection feels really good. I mean, we can just have beautiful conversations like we’re having now we can have friendships that just fill us up. But when we start to step into these long term relationships, whether it’s a an intimate one, a friendship one a work one, there’s a whole nother level, it moves from being this sweet connection to being what I think is like a growth tool. And we learned so much about ourselves in relationships. And I don’t think we talk about that enough. So I be curious what your thoughts are on, literally, what is the purpose of connecting and being in long term relationships with people?

Mark Groves  

Well, you make a good point that, you know, we don’t, we’re not taught relating in school, very seldom, I think, like, you know, let’s just throw a number probably like point 00 1%, of education platforms actually teach it in schools. And so what happens is, is that you have us all wanting to be, I think it’s also ironic that you get to be like 15, and 16. And all of a sudden, you’re like, Oh, I guess I’m just going to enter relationships and be good at them, yet, there’s no outside intervention to get you. So you replicate the relational patterns of your parents generally. And what you’ve learned in romantic comedies, and Disney and also probably pornography to you after this is how we’re informed till we start to actually look and learn and start to take courses or listen to podcasts like yours. And so the purpose, when you look at the long term impact of healthy relating, versus unhealthy relating, there’s a study done by Harvard is the longest running study looking at wellbeing. And it shows that the greatest predictor of your health at 80 is actually the quality of your relationships at age 50. So not your blood pressure, not your cholesterol, the quality of your relationships, and not just your romantic relationships, any type of relationships. So that shows you that how we relate has a dramatic impact on our health. So relationships and their purpose in our lives, is you also said this to is to be a mirror to our potential because any trigger or any friction in relationship is an opportunity for you to grow. And I can tell you when I was younger, when I got feedback from a partner, I wasn’t thinking, Oh, this is amazing. Thank you so much for the mirror of my positive. Don’t understand, definitely not. I remember complaining to my dad once on the phone about my girlfriend in my like, early 20s. And my dad said to me, oh my god, Mark, she was complaining about something which she had the right to complain about. So if you’re listening, you were valid. And I said to her, well, it’s so bad. I don’t even want to say what I said, but hey, it’s all about growth. I’m very different now. But I said, I was so bad. Why don’t you leave? I told my dad, I said this. And he was like, Mark, oh my God. And I remember I didn’t necessarily understand what he was saying at the time. But you know, it’s one of those seeds that plants in your psyche. Yeah, said a relationship is a separate entity. There is you and there is her and then there is the investment in the separate organism. And what you just did was not invest in it. And wow, yeah. And I think when we can start to see that feedback from a partner, if delivered in a healthy way, is actually an invitation to our evolution and the purpose of relationships from a biological perspective is we need other people like when you are lonely, the same parts of your brain light up as when you experience physical pain and the what is positive about that is that it will draw you to seek out help to seek out others. So we are tribal, by species by nature. And we need other people. And I think what got confused, and still does in the language of don’t need nobody Don’t need a man don’t all that stuff, which is valid from the cultural experience of divorce and financial abuse, and all that kind of stuff is that you do need somebody, but when you depend on somebody who’s unhealthy, and you place your well being and your self worth, in another person’s hands, who is not reliable, you’re gonna get hurt. And so I don’t think as a culture, we’re coming back. But I don’t think as a culture, we really explain that nuanced, especially to young girls, and anti young boys. And so what happens is, is we don’t necessarily have the ability to, like, the greatest struggle people have is, how do I be in a relationship and maintain who I am? Yeah, give up ourselves for love or give up relationships to maintain self.

Dr. Mindy  

Who? Yeah, and you actually, that’s so powerful, because where my brain is really grabbing on to is this idea that there’s actually three entities in a relationship, there’s each individual, and then there’s the relationship. And I think you could probably say that about friendship, you could probably say that about work relationships. So if you look at those three entities, and you’re somebody who’s into self growth, which I feel deeply that that’s your, your plight in life is a growth mindset. So you’ve got somebody who’s willing to own their stuff, somebody who’s willing to keep working on themselves, and then you’ve got the other person in the relationship who’s not as keen on that. And so they’re kind of staying stuck in wherever they are on their human journey. And if they’re not doing introspective work, you’re doing a ton of introspective work, and now you’re coming together into the relationship, sometimes, and this can, this, I’ve noticed this in many relationships in my life, that sometimes you feel like you’re the hardest working person in the relationship, and it becomes difficult. But yet, when you look at that, on the flip side of relationships is really honoring and letting somebody be who they are, and not trying to turn them into, onto your passions. So do we have any like, tried and true ideas on how we take the entity of relationships, and really pour into that entity, so that both humans, both people in the relationship can grow as humans? Yeah, it’s

Mark Groves  

such a good question. And I would imagine a conundrum that many people face is this idea that I feel like I’m the one leaning in, I’m the one suggesting the book, or the podcast, or the course, therapist, or whatever it is. And that you’ll notice is often true in relationship is that there’s one person who’s sort of more extended and the other person who’s more shelled up. And there’s lots of different language for that there’s the term over functioning versus under functioning, you might think of one as being anxiously attached, and the other one avoidant Lee attached. And so when we consider that one thing I would always invites someone who seems to be the one constantly growing and changing and then being like, Hey, do you want to come along? The first part is, is that a pattern? Like? Is that the childhood pattern? Were you trying to take care of other people help people change people heal people? Because what happens is, is we overextend ourselves that and send this invitation, and then we’re continuously disappointed when they don’t show up. Yeah. And that, if we look, is that a familiar feeling that you had as a kid where people weren’t showing up, you desperately wanted someone to maybe you became a perfectionist? Maybe you became maybe you’re now a therapist, a coach, a caregiver? Because that’s so often the pattern is like you become and start to monetize the very survival strategy that you’re eating. Right. So I would say most people that are in caretaking roles generally came to that from the experience of over functioning as a kid survival, right? So it comes from smile. I want to maintain this environment, I want to maintain safety and if I take care of everyone, maybe that’ll help and you know, it’s just a natural skill set we move towards so the first part is the recognition of the pattern. The second part is I recognize this when I was feeling anxious attachment and healing this chasing my partner is I remember thinking will go Gosh, if I keep inviting her to show up differently, but I keep standing in this space that she needs to step into, then how can she and I think it’s on like a micro level, that’s, hey, I’m texting this person who hasn’t responded yet. Let them have the space to move towards you. When we think about the third entity, I think about it also as this sacred space between us and other. And it is this invitation for them to stand fully in that space, too. So if I keep doing everything for another person, they never have to become an adult. If I keep doing everything for them, they never actually have to do it for themselves. And then I resent them that I’m doing everything. But meanwhile, I’m the one doing everything. Right. So this sense of radical responsibility is like, Oh, wait. What’s familiar for me is leaving myself what for? what’s familiar for me is being disappointed, I say, hey, read this book, this would help us for when we start to actually step back from that we say, Hey, I learned this thing. I found it really helpful for me to be able to understand us, and I really want to create just a deeply connective relationship with you. And is that something you’re interested in?

Dr. Mindy  

So beautifully said, well, a different

Mark Groves  

way. Because what you’re doing is most of us shrink and continue to reach down to pull up instead of saying, hey, like you kind of think about it like two adults facing each other instead of parent or infantilizing your your partner by treating them like a child. You’re like, Hey, show up, come over. Right. Here’s the invitation. And sometimes I remember asking them. Julie Gottman, and John Gottman, this, they wrote a book called Seven first states or seven, seven deeds. I can’t remember. But it’s an incredible book. And it’s seven essential conversations all couples should have. And I said, Well, if the other person doesn’t accept the invitation to read the book, that’s a red flag, right? Like, you should kick them to the curb. And she was like, Mark, no. Don’t remember, that’s a red flag. Yeah, it was like, you should get curious as to why they’re resistant about the book, maybe they have another avenue they’d rather learn through, maybe they’re scared of what it’s going to bring up for them. But at the end of the day, the truth is that you can only invite people to show up, and there will be a timeline where you can no longer wait. And after you wait past that timeline, the cost starts to become your own, but your own physiology. So that answers your question.

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah, no, that was really good. And the word curious is a new word that I’m obsessed with as well. Because I think it’s a better way to look at a challenging situation is to be curious about it, as opposed to be like Blamey about it, you know, so what it, let’s say you’re in a relationship, that is tough, and it doesn’t feel like the other person’s doing the work that you would like them to do. What does it look like to help them to actually articulate that like, curiosity and leading them into a place of like, I love what you said, were, you know, are you wanting to bring a different creation to the relationship? That is, that is the word creations even amazing. Like, that is a really interesting, interesting way to look at that. But how can we say this to our partners, in a way that doesn’t feel threatening? That feels like an invitation that feels like a new dimension, you know, a lot of the people that are listened to this podcast have been married a very long time. And it’s very easy to fall back into old patterns. And it’s, you have to stay awake. And really, if you want to evolve that marriage or that relationship, it takes constantly reinventing, you’re something as simple as the language you use with each other under

Mark Groves  

percent. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Mindy  

So how do we do that? How do we keep that sort of Spark through our question asking, so that we can see where that that partner is at along the journey?

Mark Groves  

Well, a few things to just first say one is that your relationship, we’re going to be recreating relationships in a different way when we orient to them from a place of radical truth. So most of us, our relationships are not the place that we are all of ourselves. And there’s a number of reasons for that, like Harriet Lerner talks about how I remember asking her like, Why do women seek out relational information more than men? Yeah, because that’s my experience. I’m sure it’s your experience with audio. That’s right. And she said, every subordinate group must learn the needs and nuances of the dominant group. And she said so what that means is if a Women didn’t learn how to dance with and become emotionally fluid. It could mean death. It could mean right, it could mean pain. And so it is natural that the health of a relationship tends evolutionarily to have fallen on women’s shoulders. I think we can all agree that in our experience, certainly from a heteronormative perspective, that’s true, it feels like the barometer of the health of the relationship, women tend to be more attuned to. Yep. And this can be true in same sex relationships to where one partner just tends to be more attuned to it. Right. And, and so there’s just the, the context of that, I think, is important. Because when I was talking about over functioning versus under functioning, that like, I’m going to do all the emotional work, no one person can do enough work for too. It’s impossible.

Dr. Mindy  

So well said,

Mark Groves  

like you have to be met, and most people are used to not being met. So the first qualifier, I’ll say, is that your conversations might come with a fear that your relationship might end. That’s usually why we avoid heart conversations. And that’s usually why we avoid invitations to meet us. Now, I’m not saying to become some superhero, I’m saying to meet us, that’s not an expectation or a standard that is unachievable. So you’re not asking for the world, when you say, hey, we need to learn how to be to communicate emotionally together. Here’s what I think would help facilitate that it’s really important to me that I understand your needs, and your wants and your struggles. That’s important to me. Is it important to you that minor understood, some people might say no, but you got to ask the questions. And here is, the radical truth about this is that when you use become fully liberated in your relationship, and for a lot of people who’ve been married 1015 20 years, they got married under different pretenses that got married, definitely different reasons. Yes. So at 30 to 3555 65, there all of a sudden, like, holy, yet, I’m in this relationship. And I’ve forgotten about myself. Yes. And so my first invitation is come fully alive, like come fully alive, everything you love, bring it into your life. Because I can tell you that if my partner because I now have this perspective, if my partner came to me and said, I want to do this, this brings me alive, I’d be like, sign me up, I might not be the dancing part very well, but I’ll do it because it matters to you. Why, because if you don’t grow with your partner, and your partner will grow away from you. And by the time they leave, they’ll already be gone. And then you’ll want to change. And so my invitation is changed when the request comes. Because I see that so much, especially and it’s due to so it’s not anyone’s fault. But the way we pattern in relationship is in is generally inherited. And so men tone Don’t be the one who invite the expansion they sometimes do. And then they’ll experience the opposite, you know, the similar circumstance in the opposite direction. But what happens, women initiate divorce more than men. Yeah, by the time they first say something, it’s about two years till they walk out the door. When women have a challenging emotional situation, about 60, something percent of the time, I can’t remember the exact stat they turned towards friends. When men have a challenging situation, it’s about the same turning towards their partner. So when men lose relationship, they tend to lose their emotional support. And so that’s why I see this all the time in my DMs, like, she left now I’m getting it and that’s beautiful. You’re getting it, and it might be too late to get it. But at least you’re getting in. So my invitation to people is like, come fully alive, because and what would bring your partner fully alive. Because if you’re resenting your partner that you’re not doing things you love, that’s your fault, not theirs. And so when you come fully alive, the relationship is invited to come fully alive, you are liberated. And although they might have resistance to your liberation, the relationship is actually now liberated from the patterns of silence, resentment holding in, because men being with a woman who is not censored, to me is the hottest thing in the world. Like I look at my wife, she tells me the truth I don’t like but damn is it hot?

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah, every man needs to think like that. Can we replicate you? That’s pretty that’s pretty impressive. And

Mark Groves  

only once you garner the gold from their feedback when you finally Yeah, for for a lot of people, they don’t know how to hold the shame. That comes with feedback. This idea like if you’re telling me I need to Grow or change, then basically what I now am thinking unconsciously is I’m not good enough, I can’t take care of you. I’m not enough for you. Instead of holy. She’s telling me how to become powerful. And if I can meet her in this power, or her him or whatever, then we’re liberated.

Dr. Mindy  

Amazing. You know, my parents have been married 60 years. Wow. 30 plus years. Yeah. And so I’ve had a front row view of a very successful relationship. Now, it is also, you know, a 50s. You know, they’re, they were like the, I call them the 50s couple where it was very, you know, gender based and very traditional. But when they, when they had their 40th wedding anniversary, I asked my dad, I said, What’s the secret dad? Or maybe it was their 50th. I was like, What’s the secret to a lasting marriage. And his first thing he said, was, when the other person wants to change, let them and you might just be amazed that what they’re changing into is something that you want to join

Mark Groves  

That’s so beautiful. Isn’t that incredible? How beautiful. I remember Dr. Alexandra Solomon, who’s like world renowned therapist, she said, you will have many marriages in your lifetime. And sometimes it will be to different people. Right. And I love that this like imitation, because if we expect our partners to be the same, that means we expect ourselves to be the same. And then we’re projecting that on our partners. And often we’re afraid of our partners changing because we are afraid they’ll grow away from us. We think that it’s changing the agreements of the relationship. If if you’re not developing new interests, New Directions, New passions, than likely are stagnant. I think it’s Tony Robbins, who says if you’re not growing, you’re dying. And I think about that a lot like a lot of us are afraid to expand because we’re afraid it will fracture the relationship. But what ends up happening is we end we end up internalizing that fracture, we end up disconnected from our own souls, we end up with anxiety, we end up depressed we end up with poor relationships with substances with everything, and they become these coping mechanisms. And as Gabor Ma Tei says, the wrong question is why the addiction, the right question is why the pain?

Dr. Mindy  

Right? Yeah. And you know, it’s interesting, because what I’m seeing just in speaking to a lot of the women that are listening to this podcast, is that when we go through the menopause experience, we have this neurochemical armor that starts to come down, you know, our hormones are changing, our neurotransmitters are shifting. And all of a sudden, what I’m realizing and seeing in my own life and in friends and in our community is the traumas that you haven’t healed are bubbling to the surface, and then you’re in a relationship, if you’re in a marriage or a committed relationship. Those traumas come up, and they start to influence the relationship and it can be very difficult. And when I look at the research on menopausal women, you know, 70% of menopausal women are the 70% of of divorces that happen over 40 were initiated by women, just like you said earlier. Yeah. 45, between 45 and 55 is the most common time for a woman to commit suicide. Wow. So you’re, you’re literally looking at women, once they hit their 40s that that become an have start to have this internal conflict that they don’t know what to do with. And John Gray interviewed him on on my podcast. And he said that, like 90% of people that go to therapists are women. So I want to, I want to go back to this idea where as women, we are our our internal drive is to go to the therapist, talk to a friend, like talk it out so we can move beyond it. And sometimes I think for men, it’s you, you all don’t, we haven’t our society hasn’t given you that platform to do that. And so it becomes harder for men to be able to process some of the feelings that are going on inside their mind. If you’re in a heterosexual relationship, you know, what can we do to help the men in our lives, be able to be more expressive and process that, but not have it to always be us? That’s that’s the one doing that with them.

Mark Groves  

Wow. I mean, that again, such a really important question and nuanced. I mean, the first thing I’ll say is that men need men. You know, men need men’s groups, men need spaces with other men, that there is actually openness to talk about challenges. You know, I think about a lot of friendships which there was there’s nothing wrong with Having male friends that you just talk about the game with or golf with or workout with. But can we find places in spaces that are actually about opening up male vulnerability? The reason those Generally I would say, All men need men only spaces for that is because as soon as a woman as in the room, it changes. Because we go into performative peacocking. And like, all of a sudden, we’re like, oh, like, care, like, I gotta experience cool, you know, and just like a man would change a woman space. It’s interesting, though, because, like, when you think about emotional fluency, men are not socialized to be emotionally fluid, right? Like, yeah, the acceptable emotions out of men tend to be anger, and maybe happiness and, and just like, blah, blah, whatever that emotion is. And you know, when Brene Browns research, she talks about how when a woman when a man cries in front of a woman, she actually loses respect for him, really starts to not trust him. Anyway, think about that. Yeah, that’s in her, I think her first TED Talk and might be in her second one. And she talks about it in one of her books, too. And so when I think about that, I think about how we’re socialized. And when you think when when men start to step into emotionality, which usually becomes because they don’t have a choice, they hit a rock bottom, their wife leaves them the partner breakup, whatever it is, that they now are opening this box, that they’ve shoved away in a closet, because society says, Listen, we want emotionally fluent men, we desperately need them. Oh, wait, go to war, kill people, and do most of the world’s most dangerous jobs. And if you show emotion, you’re probably going to get called a sissy. And if you show emotion, your partner might actually reject that emotion, because they don’t know how to trust male emotion, which there could be many reasons for that. So when a man chooses to step into emotional fluency, he is ultimately going against everything. He is going against all the programming that says this is what a man is. So it’s a beautiful fracturing that occurs because ultimately, what the man is saying, by embodying it and becoming it is that I decide what a man is not society. But in order to do that, they have to be ready to lose membership to define masculinity. Now you also look at the way the media has portrayed men, and certainly true to some of it, but is toxic masculinity, men are bad. That messaging especially to young boys without nuance has them where they don’t know how to have a healthy relationship to masculinity. You know, I had some moment I remember once asked me, like, how do I teach my son? That’s just gonna

Dr. Mindy  

say, I have, I have a 20 year old son, I was like, tell me how we do this.

Mark Groves  

Well, I remember her saying, like, how do I teach him to be masculine and have emotion express emotion? And I said, Well, teach them that they’re not connected. They have no relation. emotionality is a human experience. It is not male or female. What we notice is that how you’re raised and what you’re exposed to changes, you know, how you’re going to express and what is safe for you. Because if you learn even as a woman, that anger is not safe. We often hear that right? Like, she’s too much. She’s crazy. She’s this Yeah. Then they’ll shut down from their emotion. Again, remember how I said, anxiety is a symptom of repressed emotion. So if you don’t have connection to grief, anger, joy, like your core feelings, then you’re it’s going to show up as what Hilary Jacobs handle would call an inhibitory emotion, which is anxiety. So when we consider inviting our partner to start to speak more emotionally, I think the first part is to put into context that however old that man is versus however old you are, is the amount of years that he has been conditioned to be one right. So yeah, you’re 30 you got 30 years of a head start on emotional fluency. Yeah, so what I noticed when I started to step more into that, and I was in sales, so I knew how to use language, but I didn’t know how to use language about feelings because there were so many unprocessed things like I would often shut down which is more of a male behavior to become avoidant, to shut down to withdraw withdrawal. Stonewall is the term and it took me a while to lean in, but I had a partner who sometimes would get reactive to it, because we were processing stuff together. But what I had a partner who I asked like, I might get these words wrong, because I remember a woman I was dating, I said something and she would like react to the words and I’m like, Wait, that’s not what I meant. Like, just give me a second to like find because it’s not dissimilar to a toddler learning language. And I don’t mean that to like infantilize men, I just mean that the process of putting words to feelings, like right now, a part of me feels that’s a really important part in delineation of language, a lot of us say, I am angry, I am sad. But what happens when you say I am, is you must become everything after that. And when you say I am sad, you now can’t be something else. So, if you say, a part of me feels, now you’ve distanced yourself from the feeling. So you’re, you are not the feeling. And then you also give space for other parts, like, you know, someone getting engaged, might feel anxious. And if they just are anxious, then that actually might destabilize the whole curiosity that they have. And because there might be a part of them, that’s excited, there might be a part of them, that’s afraid. Right? Right. And so we have to create space through language, we were talking about the importance of language, we have to create space through the language we use to create space for all of us, because we’re complex. And I think when men accept that reality, that they are complex emotional beings, which usually happens, because we have to figure that out. Right? You know, there’s a saying that angry, anger is sads bodyguard. And I think that’s very much true that anger when we don’t have space for grief, grief gets expressed as anger. But when we have space for grief, both exist,

Dr. Mindy  

I also heard that anger is is is a form of creating power over somebody, you know, it’s like, we get angry, and I love that idea of it, you know, it’s sadness, you know, sadness is bodyguard. And it’s like, well, there’s no room for where sadness can go. And if you’re feeling sad in a relationship, and you’re feeling powerless, it’s like anger will show up to try to grab power. So those beautifully said, one of my thoughts is I’m listening to you is so fascinating. You know, I’ve been really in the trenches trying to understand what women need right now in this modern world, because feminism that has really taken us only so far, you know, it’s taken us to this place where we feel we actually feel like we need to be less emotional, we need to be more man like to, to be able to sit at the table with men. And the and yet, that’s what I think as women, the beautiful part, if you look at us, hormonally is we have this widespread estrogen and progesterone together make us very emotional, we have a big spectrum of emotions. Whereas when you look at men, you guys are run primarily by testosterone, it typically is a hormone that, that doesn’t make you as emotional. But when we look at society, we have put men and women in these camps and what and I, and really categorized like, women are over reactive, and we have all these emotions, and men are non emotive. And what I’m hearing in what you’re seeing right now is that actually men would like to learn how to be more emotive, they’d like to learn how to connect more, but the society doesn’t allow them the space to do that. Is that correct? And how, what would be your vision of how we could create a society where men feel like they could be more emotive and could have more of that human connection pour out of them from and be accepted?

Mark Groves  

Yeah, I mean, when I think about I have a son now, who is almost four months old, and I consider how do I engage with him in a way that he feels safe to feel and you know, all that kind of stuff? You know, I think it starts with raising children in a way that they feel that they’re safe to feel all the things and they’re connected to emotion, but they’re also learning boundaries from their parents. That’s obviously very important. And the other thing too, is when I think about my wife and I navigating conflict, which oh my gosh, like talk about hormonal shifts during pregnancy, and then post birth and me really needing to understand and contextualize what’s going on. And I’m now exposed to much more estrogen ceremonially, yes, post birth, and how does that impact my physiology? There’s all these things to consider. And when I come back too often, and I think I heard Peter at TSA this, that when he is really frustrated with his child, he thinks about himself at ad and remembering that this could possibly the be the last time, the last memory with their child. And so that invoking this, like, Oh, this is such an important moment, and my stuff needs to go to the wayside. And I’ve been really practicing that and I think having that emotional space, so first off modeling it Mom and Dad, or dad and dad, mom and mom, the navigation needs to be when you’re handling conflict, that you model healthy conflict and repair in front of the child. Now, not every repair needs to occur in front of the child. But what’s really important is we tend and most of us have memories of our parents fighting, but usually behind closed doors. And we almost never got to see mom say story or dad’s a story in front of us, has actually so important, modeling that loop in the the creating a world that invites male emotion. You know, I forget who I heard talk about this, but the idea that men tend to emulate men who get women. Oh, that makes a lot of sense, right? Interesting. So if you see women choosing men who are like super muscular, super masculine, and I’m talking in the definition of like, guarded quiet, but stern warrior, you know, not to emotive, but like powerful, lots of money, all that kind of stuff, which, historically evolutionary that makes sense. Women tend to choose men who can procreate protect and provide, right, and men tend to be drawn to women. This is evolutionarily speaking, it’s all the things that are sold to women, much like all those things that are sold to men become more viral, become more strong, become make more money, women are sold this idea of like, make sure you look young, never age, and hip to waist ratios, that is one of the, you know, for child’s bang for hair, you know, lips in swollen lips, because that infers arousal, you know, so when we can start to actually just monitor that those things are going on, because they’re just part of how we are evolutionary and biologically, we could choose to say yes or no to what we want to. But when I hear a woman talk about what kind of partner they want, and this can be true of men, but we’ll stay with this part that you ask. They’re like, I want someone emotionally capable, who can dialogue who’s trustworthy who’s this, this and this. And I remember reading this study of speed dating, where people put all the things they wanted. But then as soon as they had a connection with someone that went out the window, and so we have to, I like to call it like, we have to take charge of our charge. Because a lot of the times I’ll hear someone say I just can’t help who I have chemistry with. And I’ll say to them, but that’s like, that means you have no discernment over who you choose. That means that your thinking, chemistry draws me to good partnership. And then I just asked, Have you ever been drawn to someone who’s not good for you? almost everybody’s like, hell yeah. Because we’re being drawn to some of these other factors that we’re evolutionary drawn towards. So if we can start to make a discerning choice between who we’re drawn towards, and who is healthy for us, we start to cultivate healthy attraction and chemistry. And we start to find dependability, loyalty, emotionality, attractive. Now, this doesn’t mean you can’t throw out the idea of a partner who you feel safe with, you know, all those other things. It’s that when we start to choose the people, we say we want, other people will start to emulate what’s being chosen. And I would say that emotionality and emotional agility and fluency is the currency of the future relations. Yeah, great. And we’re kind of in like everything, you know, we’re in a flux, we’re in a flux where things are reorganizing, and a lot of us find ourselves in relationships that were chosen based on previous priorities, or what we were taught were our priorities. You hear that a lot. someone’s like, we’re not married, because they were like, safe. They’re the same religion. They’re this. Yeah. And I was a certain age, right? And then at 40, they’re like, I don’t actually, I’m not even attracted to them. Yeah. And that’s a whole other can of worms.

Dr. Mindy  

Is there anything we can do as women to open the space? If you’re, you know, whether it’s a friendship, a work relationship, a marriage? Like, is there anything we can do to open up the space to allow men to be the men in our lives to be a little more emotive? I’ll give you an example. So my son is 20. And I remember when he was a little kid, I started to see I also have a daughter and I started to see that when there was a conflict, he wanted to look away that that was more in his and I had read a book called The wonder of boys. And I saw that that was an issue but then, as a woman, I know that when we’re in a conflict situation with a man when a man looks away, we feel unheard. So I would tell him at a young age, I would say, when you look me in the eye, I actually know you’re listening to me? So can we have this conversation with you, us looking at each other. So I know that you’re hearing me. And I don’t know if that was right or not. But I remember trying to express to him at a young age that I needed certain cues as a woman to be able to feel like I was you that he was hearing me. And so I feel like in when I listened to you, I feel a little bit the same way like, how can we as women open up the space so that men feel safe to express their emotions? Is there anything we can do to create that open dialogue?

Mark Groves  

I mean, first acknowledging you for how you approach that I would be really curious to hear, and I’d love you to ask them. Like, do you remember me doing that? How has that impacted your relationships today? Did that feel safe for you? Did you know just to hear him? A lot of that is modeled with mom, right? The relationship with women. And sometimes when our partners like if, let’s say, women didn’t get raised with emotive, emotive fathers, and then their husbands, maybe we’re not, then their relationship with their son can be impacted. Because they don’t know how to hold space for that maybe they see as a boy. And so they like, as a male. So they don’t, they might even unconsciously reject parts of their their son. Although I want to be mindful to come back to that idea of like, how do women do all the things to create? Yeah, well, sad men? Yeah. Because I think what will happen is, and I’m sure for a lot of women listening is like, Why do I wait, I got to do all this. Like, what about them? And I’d say when we come in with that energy of like jadedness that can be off putting, but I don’t want to minimize the, the, the truth of why someone might feel that way. But I think it’s just having those conversations of saying, hey, you know, I noticed you don’t tend to like to talk about your feelings. I’m wondering, is there anything I can do? That would make you feel safer to talk about anything? Is there anything that would? Is there any question I could ask? Or is there a way I respond, that could be helpful or isn’t helpful? And then we allow our partners to tell us, we allow them to say, yeah, actually, here’s what I need. And, you know, when people are not connected to what they need, it can be really hard to start to develop a connection to it, which we were talking about, like, how many people actually know their values. A lot of people don’t even know what they need, right. So when you make relationships about other people’s needs, when you start to stand in your own, again, that reorganizes the relationship. So I think when we fear triggering our partners so that they can open up emotionally, it again, causes the shutdown, of conversation, and then the person pursuing the dialogue ends up continuing to carry this burden. So another really great way to do it is to work with a therapist or a coach, because what they end up doing is they end up basically being the translator for both people’s needs and wounds. And, you know, it takes two people who are like, I’m actually interested in changing how we do this. If you could start there, like, hey, how we communicate, does it work for you? And the other persons? If it’s not working, they’re probably like, Nah, doesn’t I, you, you annoy me, or whatever the thing is, or I feel like I shut down or I feel like you’re constantly bickering or whatever it is. If you can just get to we want to do it differently. Okay, how do we have the doors open? Yeah, what do you suggest, and they might have a suggestion,

Dr. Mindy  

I will tell you, after talking to a lot of women that they would love for their husbands to go to a therapist with them. And then and there’s, and the husband doesn’t want to go. I’ve seen that over and over and over again. Fact friend, a friend of ours, really close friends, they their relationship just ended because he he refused to go she did exactly what you said, where she tried, she tried, he wouldn’t go she left and that woke him up. And so again, I think this this conversation is a beautiful opening for all of us to see how we can connect better as men and women, regardless of whether it’s an intimate relationship or not. But I’m like a huge fan of therapy. I’m a huge fan of talking out my emotions with my friends. Yeah, and I’d love for the men in my life to be that too. But I also realized that’s not perhaps in their desire. They are. And what do you do in those situations?

Mark Groves  

Well, you know, for men, I think a great intro is to go to a men’s group. That I mean, all of it requires this putting down the armor. Yeah. And we can’t force someone to put down the armor. Yeah, and as I said earlier, and maybe I probably didn’t declare it, but it’s like, most people unconsciously, in their mind, have a timeline. Like, I’m going to invite, if they don’t accept that invitation. If there’s not a change in, let’s say, six months, then I’m going to have to take a different step. So, you know, when we actually approach our partner from that perspective of like, this needs to change. And here’s, I’m committed to doing this, here’s what I’m committed to. I’m so interested in creating a powerful, emotive relationship with you something connective and I want to go deeper. I feel like I don’t know you anymore. And I want you to know me, we have this opportunity. Do you want to do that? And if the other person says no, often the pattern change for the person who’s always been chasing is to finally not chase and to say, okay, so what I hear you say, is that you’re not interested in that. Did I get that? Right? Yeah. Okay, well, if you’re not interested in that, then we’re at an end here, read an impasse. Yep. And when you’re ready to potentially invest in it, I am here to have that conversation. But at this point, I can’t chase you anymore. It’s up to you to move towards what you desire. And if what you desire is not this, then I respect that. Yeah. Because what happens there is now we’re saying like, you have the sovereign choice to say, you don’t want to pursue this relationship. And I’m making a sovereign choice that I want to pursue this relationship, but under these guidelines. And if you don’t want to meet me there, then now I’m in sovereign choice that this doesn’t work for us, either. Yeah. And that to me, is this powerful individuating? Yep. That then now we have two adults, mostly, who get to choose what path they’re going on. And we’re no longer trying to keep each other in this relationship, because that’s what you’re supposed to do. Or people who get divorced, hurt their children. You know, it’s, I get asked that a lot like, how do you should you stay together for the kids? And I’m like, that’s the wrong question. It’s, if you stay together for kids do something about it. Because when you look at the health of children ideally, parents together love each other. Parents apart, love each other. Parents together dislike each other parents, not together dislike each other treat each other disrespectfully. Those aren’t better than each other. They’re the same. Yeah. Yeah. And what you teach your children is to stay in difference, to stay in relationships that aren’t healthy, to not be able to let go of something with grace. And that’s why as adults when we witness our parents do that, we don’t know how to leave with grace. We don’t know how we’re because their divorce had an impact on us we think that the our divorce or our whatever will, will impact them and it doesn’t mean it doesn’t impact the children. But teaching how to adults can navigate something gracefully and love each other when it ends. That’s unconditional love.

Dr. Mindy  

Oh, that’s so beautiful. The you know, I was thinking as you were talking to books that I read when my kids were little little were the wonder of boys and the wonder of girls. And one of the things that I gleamed little pieces from both those books was as parents with boys, we tend to be like, you know, how you doing little man bacup little guy, you know, it’s very much like I remember really even catching myself with my son. Not calling him a man when he was like, six months old. Right? Like, we’re like,

Mark Groves  

man, little man. Yeah, and I might have, yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

but you don’t. But those subtle cues are sort of like grooming them for this patriarchal position. And then with women. In the wonder of girls, what would often happen is that we compliment little girls on on their hair and how pretty they look. My daughter had this really cool like, big hair blonde curly hair, and everywhere we went. When we are in supermarkets, people will be like, You’re so beautiful. You’re so beautiful. And I would always make a separate comment and say yeah, and she’s smart, too. And she’s kind and she’s funny, and I would always add another attribute because I didn’t want her to see hey, the world gets you and loves you for how you look. And we I think we, we forget that that messaging comes to play now when we’re in a long term relationship, especially. And those are the things that we’re butting up against. And I going back to this pandemic idea, I just feel like we have a moment to rebrand this, we have a moment to rebrand masculine, feminine. I mean, there’s so much that’s changing in our world. And I, what I’m learning from this conversation with you as, as a woman is, we have a moment to open up the door for men to be able to express themselves differently. And yeah,

Mark Groves  

yeah, and to understand that we are not the same. But also there is the way we navigate emotion is different. And whether that is either developmentally or through socialization as well, I’m sure there, you know, there’s lots of confounding factors to both those things. Because what you’re talking about, I remember, there’s a study where they give people a baby girl and a baby boy, and they already start to use language that’s different, which of course will shape as you’re saying, how they see themselves. I remember I interviewed Dr. Laura McNally. And she said that when children are like nine and 10, that’s when girls are being judged on how their body looks and boys are being judged on how their body performs. And like a boy can, you know, do whatever to potentially become faster, the fastest kid in the class or whatever. But for girls, they have to change their body, something that and so she said that a lot of children were historically a child, or someone as an adult would go into a plastic surgeon with like a picture of Tom Cruise’s nose. Now they’re using these like face tune apps and weird shit filters, you know, stuff like that. And so we also have to understand that we’re growing up in a time where social media is amplifying these things do right. And yes, like you can make millions of dollars based on your, but you can make millions of dollars, based on the appearance of having a Lamborghini and helping people make money. Again, I’m not shaming any of those things. But it’s very real, that if we place our self worth, in how we look, or in our status, what happens is, is when those things get taken away, you won’t know who you are, you won’t believe you have value. And you know, I say to people often that the universe will remove anything that you place your value in to remind you that it doesn’t live there. And so when we lose a relationship, and we feel empty inside, it’s just that the part of you that you defined yourself with with the relationship is now vacant for you to fill, which is a very different way of thinking about it. And so as we create this future of being able to relate and be able to be emotionally fluent, if we can step into that radical responsibility for how we show up emotionally, because what I think about is like, if I’m in a relationship, and I show up fully, I’m like, Okay, I had all the hard conversations, I invited them towards the thing I want, I really even got pretty good at language. And they still didn’t want to meet me, it’s not my fit. You have not my I know that when I look back upon my life, I can be proud of how I showed up here. And that means I can let it go or dive deeper into it if they choose. And what ends up happening is we end up building a really expanded self through relationship. Yeah. And then either they meet us in the future, or someone else does. But when you’re in that state of flow, it actually won’t matter to you who it is.

Dr. Mindy  

Oh my god, that was so beautiful. That was that was so eloquent. I really honestly loved the way you put words together. So I just want to compliment you on that. And as somebody who really geeks out on words, that was beautiful. So so let me finish up with this thought I have two questions for you that I asked every guest this year. One is do you have a self love practice that you actually do on a daily basis? And the second one is, what do you think your superpower is that you bring to the world?

Mark Groves  

Gosh, my self love practice. It kind of shifts based on what I’m needing. But I’d say the one thing I always come back to is exercise. That was a big one for me is like needing to move weights and needing to be very mindful about my, my health, my body, my vitality. As a father, that’s especially because I’m like, woof man. I realize now I’m like, I must have had a lot of spare time. Before I had a baby. Yeah.

Dr. Mindy  

How old is your

Mark Groves  

daughter? She’s only four months and I’m like, oh God. Yes. I said to Kai, my wife, I was like, Man, I must have been round a lot before. Yes, like I so the first part is working out and you know, there’s other ones like metod Haitian writing I’ve been I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard of the Miracle Morning by Hal.

Dr. Mindy  

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So he’s been on the podcast.

Mark Groves  

Oh my God, he’s great. I love his nozzle. And so I had him on the podcast. And I was like, damn, this guy is inspiring. I’m gonna do all those things, and see how it impacts my life. And so it’s been amazing. One thing I’ve noticed about having a kid is I’ll be like, Oh, get up before mom and him. But now they just keep getting up earlier. I’m like, yeah, oh, yeah. Like, you’re killing me here. And then what is my superpower? That’s such a good question. You know what I’d say it’s levity. I’d say it’s that. Like, one thing that I’ve found in my own experience of myself, but also in my experience of speaking at conferences and stuff, and workshops, and retreats. Is that is that I, I allow people to feel into the vulnerable things, but then find the humor in their experience, because to me, it’s like, if you can’t laugh at the ridiculousness of the things, we choose the things we do, then you won’t be able to let it go, you know, you got to find the joy and the humor and even our mistakes and, and I think that’s a superpower. That is

Dr. Mindy  

what the world, the world needs that superpower for sure. And we take things quite serious and personal. So, Mark, this has been incredible. I really, I really appreciate this conversation. I have been out really talking about what women need in the world. And you know, about five minutes into you and I chatty and I was like you’re the guy to talk about what how we can create this beautiful space for men as well. So I just thank you, how do people find you?

Mark Groves  

Well, thank you for having me. It’s such an honor. And for the listeners, the watchers, thanks for trading your time to listen to me. And I don’t take that for granted. You can find me at create the love.com is where all my relationship based courses are. I have a podcast called The Mark rose podcast. And I also have a sub stack that’s just substack dot Mark roof.com where I just write about my my musings.

Dr. Mindy  

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you keep keep spreading love in the world. And we’re just so grateful that you came and had this conversation. And as always, let us know how we can support the work you’re doing. I I feel like the those of us that are really working to create a deeper human, we just need to we need to rally around each other. So I appreciate your part in changing human consciousness. So thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me in today’s episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we’d love to know about it. So please leave us a review, share it with your friends and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.