Enneagram Master Class: A Deep Dive with Dr. Deborah Egerton

Dr. Mindy  

On this episode of The recenter podcast, I have got something really fun in store for all of you. It is a masterclass on a Personality Typing system called the Enneagram. And who you’re about to hear is Dr. Deborah eager 10. And she is not only a psychotherapist and a best selling author, but she’s a certified Enneagram teacher. And she is putting out a book called Enneagram made easy. And the Enneagram is actually a tool that I’ve been using in my life for over 30 years, a personality system a way to understand the different frames in which we all see life through. And to have a better way to connect and to communicate with people when you understand this personality system. But Dr. E is one of the best at this moment in teaching the Enneagram not only on an individual level, but she goes into corporations and teaches the Enneagram on a corporate level. And so I’ve used the Enneagram not only in my nuclear family, but I’ve used it in my businesses, I’ve used it in my friendships. And it has been such a helpful tool, when we are struggling to understand why somebody does something or even struggling to understand why we behave in a certain way. So what I did with Dr. E in this class, is I asked her to go through the nine different types. So you are about to hear the nine different types. It is a long episode, which is why I’m calling this a masterclass. Because if you want to understand how to use the Enneagram, so that you can understand yourself better. And you can understand those in your lives in a deeper way. Please listen through all nine. Because we went at each number from multiple directions, knowing that it may be helpful for you to get a deeper understanding of yourself. But you may also see the relationships in your life through each one of these numbers. So I bring you Dr. E. I bring you a masterclass on the Enneagram. And I bring it with so much love and hope that this will help you understand yourself, your relationships, and will move us all in into a more compassionate place. Because really, that’s truly what the humanity needs right now is for us all to understand each other better, and for us all to come from a place of love. And these nine numbers absolutely have the potential to do that for you. I can tell you firsthand, they did it for me. So Dr. E and your masterclass on the Enneagram. As always, I hope this helps.

Dr. Mindy  

Welcome to the resetter podcast, this podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself. Again, if you have a passion for learning, if you’re looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you.

Dr. Mindy  

Victory, thank you so much for being here. I we’ve had so many conversations about the Enneagram that my thirst for the knowledge of the Enneagram I feel like it’s getting quenched. But what I’m so excited about with this conversation is to bring you to my audience. So I just want to say welcome. I’m so happy you’re here. And we’re going to have this conversation.

Dr. E  

Thank you so much. Dr. Mindy. You know, from the moment I met you, I knew that we were going to have just a not just a wonderful conversation, but a wonderful relationship. Because we’re kind of on the same mission. I

Dr. Mindy  

learned that last week when we sat down and talked I was like, twofold. I was like, Oh wow, that’s a sister. And then the one of my biggest values right now is women who are decades apart in age from each other learning from each other. So and I don’t have a lot of women in their, you know, in their 60s and even 70s. So I I’m going to call you a mentor. I am so excited to learn from you. So yeah, so

Dr. E  

I actually have that on my my website, matriarch, mystic and mentor. Yeah, because I know that I’m in this season of my life where I want to mentor as many women as possible, just to be able to stop this sort of notion of being versions of yourself. You know, there is an authentic self that we work Create it to be. And the sooner we put aside trying to go through versions of what other people think we should be it step into our authentic true selves. That’s when we live our best life. Do you think

Dr. Mindy  

before we dive into the Enneagram? Do you think that that’s part of the wisdom of aging for women? Because I would say that about a couple of years ago, I’m 54, a couple of years ago, that word authentic version of myself kept popping up and I and I got, I hit this place where I was like, I’m no longer willing to bend over backwards for everybody around me, I want to do what’s right for me. And then that became the question of, well, what’s right for me? And I realized I didn’t have the answer to that. And I’m wondering if that’s part of the aging process, that we just start to realize we don’t feel like people pleasing and putting up with everybody else’s game anymore. Well, you know,

Dr. E  

with age should come wisdom. Yeah. But that’s not always the case. Yeah. And the only way that you can really grow into the space of wisdom, is to recognize that as you go through your life, if you are picking up knowledge, if you are seeing different examples of things in life that you can do differently. But if you don’t embody the knowledge, the examples that are put in the lessons that are there for you, then you don’t gain wisdom. Yeah, you know, you just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again. And as we know, the universe will give you ample opportunity to try it again. Yes, no? Yes. Yes, absolutely. So I can say that there comes a time in your life, when it’s not about pleasing someone else. Or being who you think you’re supposed to be, you really take the time and you go inward, it becomes more of an internal journey than it is an external journey. Now, I’m not going to say that, you know, you get to the point where you don’t care at all how you look, or you don’t care what anybody thinks we’re human, right? And as long as we’re human beings, we’re going to have some level of living in the real world and real life experiences. Well, what do you really value, don’t watch valuable, and what’s important is what’s going on. And so right, when I

Dr. Mindy  

learned the Enneagram, through your lens, what I realize is, it is a coming home, to yourself. And when I talk to women out there, so many women are putting everybody else ahead of their own needs. So that coming home, when they try to come home, they don’t know who they’re going to find there. So when I first started looking at the Enneagram, through the lens in which you teach it, I realized, wow, what an incredible opportunity to tap into a system to understand yourself and your motivations and the way you operate in the world in a second.

Dr. Mindy  

And so can we start with that? Because I’m hoping that the women listening to this podcast will see that if they are lost and understanding who they are the Enneagram is an incredible system to find yourself. It absolutely is, you know,

Dr. E  

Mindy, I can tell you that the Enneagram changed my life. And I was fortunate enough to find it at a young enough stage where the changes that I needed to make, which were very much about looking at how I was showing up in the world. And not only the impact that it had on me, but the impact it was having on the relationships in my life.

Dr. E  

The Enneagram gave me an opportunity to see and experience myself the way other people saw and experienced me. And that at first is horrifying. Yeah, right. That’s where I begin. It’s horrifying. When I first found out my my Enneagram type, the point that I stand at, I honestly curled up in a little ball and I just cried. I just saw tears of sadness or sadness. It was sad. And it was sadness because who I thought I was and what I thought I was doing.

Dr. E  

I recognize immediately that my good intentions might not have been landing in the way that I hoped that they were. You know, I still I ended Enneagram point one, and I am a do the right thing kind of person. And I believe very much in, you know, kind of self improvement and personal development, all those good things, and helping other people to get there. But if you push too hard, you know, like the old adage, if, you know if, if you’re a hammer and everything looks like a nail, you know, I recognize that my lens might have been that as every one is broken. So let me help fix you. Now, that was not my intent. But I did see that if you’re constantly trying to help someone be better, particularly if they haven’t asked for it. Then what’s the message that you’re sending? Yeah, the message is you’re broken. Yeah, you’re broken. And it just broke my own heart to realize that I’m trying to be helpful. And yet, I may have actually hurt people. And yeah, I’m old. Were you. I was 40. Something Oh, a Ford. And

Dr. Mindy  

you’re and you. Were you a psychologist at that point? Yeah, you were in practice. And that would be a really interesting lens, where if you I mean, of course, people come to a therapist to get help because they’re perceived as broken. But if you accentuate that I can understand as as a healer and a helper that wouldn’t feel really horrible to want to. Yeah, I could understand that. The

Dr. E  

interesting thing about finding the Enneagram is that, in addition to having that epiphany, I also recognize that all of the work that I had been doing with people as a therapist, that I could absolutely accelerate their growth. If I could give them the Enneagram. Yeah, that after they left me, they could continue to do their own inner work. Because you tell people all the time, you got to do the work. Well, what is the work? Right? And how do you really help put someone on that path? So by teaching people in showing them and introducing them to the Enneagram, then they began their own deeper exploration? Yeah. And at that point, I thought, wow, okay, this is, this is unbelievable, I think, you

Dr. Mindy  

know, we’ve had a lot of conversations about my parents coming home in my early 20s, having studied the Enneagram, and announcing the numbers that we all were. And I think that in that moment, what I learned the first time I heard the Enneagram was, Oh, you mean we all look at life differently. And that was freeing is the to have the opportunity to understand that you have a lens in which you are viewing everything from and it could be different than my lens. And if we, if I understand your lens, and I understand my lens, the communication could be a lot deeper. And I would say for the last 30 years, that has been my impression of the Enneagram is honoring that you have a unique way in which you’re going to communicate and I have a unique way. What I’m now learning from you is so much more than that. But that alone, I think is freeing. So can you talk a little bit for people who don’t know what the Enneagram is? What is the general premise of this typing system? It’s been around forever. It’s gaining more momentum. So it’s not going anywhere. Why are so many people excited about this? It’s

Dr. E  

really funny. The Enneagram has been the symbol is what it’s been around forever.

Dr. E  

The symbol actually predates Plato. Oh, wow. But the the actual personality typology system, it came to the Western world in the 70s. And it actually came in through the Jesuits. And they were studying it and they were told not to share it with anyone. And of course, you know, what happens when you tell someone not to share? So of course, it immediately spread throughout.

Dr. E  

And the rest is history. But it is a actually a psycho spiritual tool. I call it the owner’s manual that you wish you were born with, or Yeah, because it’s very much a blueprint to your own being at your operating system. And if you can understand your operating system, then life doesn’t have to be quite so hard. You know, I think the girl Greatest Gift of the Enneagram is the reality of when you understand why you do what you do, there are some things that you will stop doing. There are some things that you will understand and stop blaming and hurting yourself for, there’s some things that you will stop accusing other people of it’s, it’s just a gift of grace and loves. And it teaches you that you are just fine. There’s nothing about you, that is random. There’s nothing about you that was not intentionally created in your being for your good. The question is, and the quest is using it for your good, right, as opposed to getting sidetracked de toward, you know, and just making life so difficult. But what the Enneagram identifies is your core motivation, your basic desire, the thing that you are most trying to get out of life, your basic fear, the thing that you are most trying to avoid. And then it also has some beautiful gifts, it shows you something that we call the passion, which is like the vise and you know, the thing, that kind of woowoo, you know, that’s that thing that you’re afraid to go near, but at the same time, you have to touch it, in order to wake up. It also shows you these patterns that we get into the fixations, and that we keep playing these out over and over again. And then once we can break out of the fixation of our behavioral patterns, then we can step into the beautiful gift of our virtue. And every type has a virtue that you know is it’s like your superpower, right? It’s that thing about you that is so special that draws people to you. So it’s all energy, Mindy. Yeah. And that’s the other thing that we don’t talk about enough is the reality that the Enneagram is nine specific points. And each one of those points has a certain energy, but only one of them leads within you. So you have all nine of those energies in you. That’s what makes you a whole human being. But one of those energies is your dominant energy. That is what becomes your type. And born with it. Okay, you know, you’re born with it. You know, you have brothers and sisters sister. Yeah. And the sister. Okay. Do you two have the same personality? And Absolutely not? Absolutely not. No. So people say, is it nature? Or is it nurture? It’s both. But you’re born with the Enneagram type kind of in place. And then based on how you’re nurtured, it sort of influences the way it solidifies in

Dr. Mindy  

you now I’m sure I’m laughing in my in my own head, because can you go through the nine types briefly. There’s a lot here. And I’m laughing because people do this with fasting all the time with me, they’re like, go through the six different fads. And you know, you get all these podcasts, you’re like, really, I’ve done this like a bazillion times. So I apologize for asking you to do it. But I think it would be helpful for people to understand the nine types and and for those of you listening, really think I mean, this is why I think of it is think of what as you’re going through them, what hits you what resonates with you what sounds like you, and we’ll talk about the tests you can take but if you could go through the nine types I can

Dr. E  

Alright, so at the first point, we’ll just start with point one to not make it confusing. Point one, I call the idealist some people know it as a reformer. But people at that stand at point one on the Enneagram are people who are very invested in doing the right thing. You find people who have a lot of integrity. And something that’s interesting about the Enneagram is that there’s specific language that you actually will hear, you know, people who stand up point one often say how hard is it just to do the right thing? The the search at point one is really about coming home to the realization that there is good in the world and that everything is not broken. The eye of the one immediately goes to what’s out of order. You know, there was a crooked painting on the wall here I’d see that’d be sitting here maybe doing like this. Actually, I’ve learned to relax. I’m

Dr. Mindy  

sure there’s plenty things cricket in there be there was? Right, right. You know, I’ve we talked about this in the in the context of business, I’ve had a lot of ones in work for me. And they are amazing organizers. And they are incredible with detail, which is really helpful for me. Well,

Dr. E  

they are until, if not, the dirty little secrets about ones is that nobody sees the mess that they make in order to create that order. Oh, and yeah, yeah, I often struggle with that. Because sometimes when people are describing one, you know, they talk about all their spices, or spices are re arranged by in alphabetical order, and was soon thing ones in our house. So yeah, well, you know, in order to find the right system, you recreate it sometimes over and over again, that’s not the best way to do it. So we’re gonna do it again. So it’s really interesting, but ones do like, for things to be perfect. They really want to live in a perfect world. So there’s a lot of self improvement, a lot of working on yourself personally. And there’s a lot of trying to improve other people, whether they want to be improved or not. So and

Dr. Mindy  

there’s a little there my experience with ones is there can be a level a level of judgment and criticism. And what I learned is that as if you feel like they’re judging you, you have to always so remember, they’re judging themselves.

Dr. E  

Absolutely. The one the ones have what we call the inner critic, all types have an inner critic, but the inner critic of the one is particularly harsh. Yeah, very, very harsh. So whatever you’re feeling coming from a one in in ways that being harsh or judgmental, what the one is doing to themselves really is something that is mirrored back, you know, even if a one comes at you. Yeah. And I often say that ones have switchblades for Tots. Yes, very mean spirited words. It has something to do with I’ve tried to bring you along. I’ve tried to help you. I’ve tried to teach you. And you’re still getting it wrong. Yeah. So now I’m just going to tell you about yourself. Right? Oh, and then you go home and you beat yourself up? Because I could have said that differently.

Dr. Mindy  

The one goes home and does that. Yeah. Which I think again, this is the beauty of the Enneagram is once I started to understand that, and I looked at the ones in my life, I was like, oh, it’s it’s got to be painful in their own head. Because that criticism, I just got a little glimpse of what they’re doing to themselves. And it gave me compassion, as opposed to wanting to be like what you told me that you said that to me. Like, that’s where we now really start to understand each other better. Well,

Dr. E  

and what I love about what you’re saying is, it’s really important to be aware that when we can go to that place of compassion and empathy for someone, recognizing that that wasn’t their best moment, you know, and because it wasn’t their best moment, we’re going to go ahead and allow that person to have that day that moment, as that’s what was happening in that brief snapshot of their life. And we don’t do that enough. No, we don’t

Dr. Mindy  

bash that in this day. And age is like the canceled culture. It’s killing everybody. Like I you don’t believe what I say you don’t think like I? It’s really interesting. Okay, what about TOS TOS

Dr. E  

are lovely twos who are all about loves, in the truest sense of the word. You know, twos exist, really to love to give and receive love. And so choose, they move through the world, looking for ways that they can actually be helpful and loving and kind to us are so good at responding to the needs of others anticipating the needs of others, but they’re terrible at anticipating the needs of themselves. In fact, I can honestly say that when I was actively practicing as a psychotherapist, to sort of break my heart, you get maybe a gal to who was going through a divorce. And I might be trying to help her to or him to just sort of, okay, let’s, let’s just sort of reconstruct your life. Let’s look at how you’re going to function through this. And I would ask a simple question like Oh, Okay, let’s set up the weekend, stead of staying in bed and being depressed, you’re going to get up, you’re going to go to the kitchen, you’re going to make yourself breakfast. What are you going to make? And the response would be, well, when Harry was there, I would I would heal asleep, this egg scrambled, soft scrambled, and, and then I, you know, I’d always have the cereal out for Johnny big. And that’s not enough. What do you want? What you want?

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah, and a lot of women are probably is,

Dr. E  

well, you know what, it’s interesting, because it’s really not gender specific in terms of the actual Enneagram type. But we’re socialized. I was just gonna say, we’re socialized to beat. Yeah. And so we, we will go to that default place of learning what someone else wants or needs, right? As wives as moms as sisters as daughters. Because that’s the stereotypical female role. Yeah. And unfortunately, if you are a two and you’re not healthy, we’ll talk about that more. But if you’re not healthy, in your particular to energy, you will allow someone else’s needs to dominate and overrule to the point where you don’t know what you want, or what you would, yeah, fix for yourself for breakfast, you’ve lost yourself or lost yourself. Yeah.

Dr. Mindy  

The interesting thing about too, so I have also had a ton of employees that were tears, especially in the healing profession, you know, that to show up all over the place. But they appear as if they want to help. And it’s 100% altruistic, and they’re just there to help you. i There was a time period that I was like, Yeah, everybody should have a bunch of tools around. But if you don’t appreciate them, oh, they will turn on you. And you get this moment of like, wait, what I thought you wanted to clean my garage, you said you were gonna clean my garage that brought you so much joy, and I was fine with that. And now you’re mad at me?

Dr. E  

Well, it’s interesting, because twos don’t want to be paraded up on a stage and given a trophy, or any kind of metal for doing something that that’s not really their thing. They want the sincere appreciation. They want the felt sense of the energy of appreciation. They because what they’re looking for is love. And the appreciation translates out into relevance. You need me you need you know that I do this for you better than anyone else. Yeah. So, and twos have a very good BS meter. So if they said they wanted to clean your garage, and you let them clean your garage, and then they got mad at you. It might be because on some level, they’re picking up an energy of you don’t really realize how much I do for you. I’m out here cleaning your dirty garage. You know, I’m not feeling the loves. Yeah, I’m not feeling the love. And two is the type that literally, when I say I’m not feeling the love, that’s what’s going on. Yeah, Jesus can be very territorial and very loyal. So if you are their person, you better not hire somebody else to clean that garage.

Dr. Mindy  

Oh, they want they, they want to do it.

Dr. E  

I clean your garage, and I clean it better than anybody else cleans your garage. And now you’ve hired some person off of Craigslist or something. You’ve got them cleaning the garage. Well, that’s totally disrespecting me. So it’s, it’s it’s an interesting dance.

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah. So how do you how do you how do we have people listening to this? And they’re like, oh my gosh, I have it too in my life. How do you how do you applaud them support them in their endeavors to help you with sincerity?

Dr. E  

Like I really appreciate you. Yeah, sincerity and you need to mean it when you say it. Because something that that too often people don’t get is that the energy of how you truly feel is out there without you ever opening your mouth, right? Yeah, energy is something that we can’t pretend it doesn’t exist. Yeah. So when someone says something to you, and they’re not sincere, TOS are pretty daggone good at figuring out Yeah, you’re not using me. Now, that’s when that’s the situation. There’s also the reality that, you know, where is that, too? In their own personal development? Yeah. Is it true that you’re disrespecting them? Or are they just feeling? Low self worth? Yeah, you know, and I

Dr. Mindy  

do think that’s what I love about the Enneagram is it’s very complex. So you know, we’re just kind of skimming over the highlights of it. But I know you have a new book Enneagram Made Easy coming out. And so and the more you dive into this, oh, my gosh, that’s like a whole, it’s like another language. So I appreciate that. Thank you for kind of taking us through the the summary of them. But I also want to point out, it’s it’s a little bit different than like DISC profile. I’m sure the DISC profile is complex. But it’s like your you know, your di sc, and it’s very linear. This is, there’s so much to understand about all the different versions of these numbers.

Dr. E  

Absolutely. Yeah. And one of the reasons that I teach and utilize the Enneagram, in everything that I do, particularly as a woman is because once you pick it up, and you figure out where your dominant energy is, then you can begin to do your own inner work. Yeah. But most importantly, is that as you navigate through life, and you, you know, you understand why you do what you do, it gives you the opportunity to make better choices, you know, and I think as women, we deserve that, oh, absolutely deserve that, you know, so much of what we do, we do because we were programmed to do it, we do it because we were taught that we had to show up a certain way or, you know, we had to do what was popular, we have to look a certain way. So the Enneagram helps you to strip away this programming. And to really, like I said earlier, I don’t believe in us living our lives trying to be different versions. But just to come home, to our authentic selves, and recognize that there was nothing about the way that we were created that needs to be fixed or changed. We just need to accept ourselves as we truly are.

Dr. Mindy  

Which is why I would say right now the Enneagram can be a lifeline for women. Because you and I talked about this last week, I feel this pulse of women waking up. And women are understanding Wait a second, this culture that I’ve been living in is a patriarchal culture. That doesn’t mean it’s run by men, but it has a power that has not been supportive of me being my own unique, individual feminine self. And when you wake up to that moment, it can be freeing, and it can be troubling, because you realize that you’ve completely lost yourself to a culture that didn’t really applaud your independence or your or your uniqueness. So I again, this is why I love going through what we’re going through because for women who are waking up to that right now, where do you turn? How do you find that? Who am I? These are all so many questions that so many women are are asking right now. So I just I love that about this tool, I almost feel like you need to write a book called Enneagram for women. I

Dr. E  

think that’ll be next. That should be next though. But the Enneagram Made Easy. One of the reasons that I really enjoyed writing it so much is because I do see women waking up. And I also see that you know, the feminine and masculine attributes the energy that exists in all a great and unfortunately for so long, the feminine attributes, the feminine energy has been sort of tamp down, you know, suppressed, and we need to bring that back. In my coaching practice. One of the things that I pay a lot of attention to is when I have women who have risen up in their organizations is to coach them not to try to lead like men. Yes, to not lose no anything

Speaker 1  

like a man. Likewise it is everything should be done like a girl. Every day. Everything

Dr. E  

was exactly teaching women to lead like a woman would lead is so important. And if we ever needed it anywhere, at any point in time, it’s now yeah, I want not only for women to lead like a girl. Yeah, but I also want men to acknowledge the feminine energy that exists Send them, you know, because really the love the compassion, the empathy, the ability to discern certain things and to view it through, sometimes a softer lens, yes. You know, sometimes a more flexible lens, sometimes a more multitasking lens. We need both of those. Yes, absolutely. And I am finding, and it’s really something that I laugh about every day. The male executives that I coach, are very comfortable with their own feminine energy.

Dr. Mindy  

Because of creation, because they’re creative, they’re creative,

Dr. E  

their organizations are more successful, their people are happy. Yeah. And so, you know, it’s, it’s important to pay attention to the reality that this exist. Yeah, you know, we, I grew up in a time where, God forbid, a man would acknowledge that he had feminine energy, right, you know, and now we know everybody’s got masculine and feminine energy and to what level? Can we bring that into the world to express it? And of course, some people who are non binary are more comfortable with both of those energies in the world that we live, in least on this side of the planet, there’s challenges to what you can or cannot be, how much masculine energy a woman can have how much feminine energy a man can have. If you are non binary? Well, what do we do with that? Right? So we have a learning curve to negotiate. Yeah. And the more that we embrace the reality that we have these energies within us, just like we had the nine different Enneagram energies in us, then the fuller, our life speak. Yeah. And the more whole we become, as individuals took us, I should go on to type three.

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah, that’s beautiful. Yeah, I don’t want to type three. Because I have some interesting things about three that I think women have gotten caught into. There’s, you know, I’m now thinking about all these numbers through the lens of like, how women are operate in the world. So go ahead and explain 3033

Dr. E  

Is the achiever. Yep. And so here you see the energy of ambition, the energy of success, the energy of wanting to actually be the best. Yeah, and sometimes it’s be the best by any means possible. The three energy absolutely does want to go up on that stage and get the trophy or the metal. My the co author of my books will be SEMA and SE, who started working with me when she was 17 years old, it’s been with me ever since is a two, absolutely does not want to ever be sitting here in this chair. But it’s so happy to, you know, to just be right there with me in the process of making this come out into the world. But the three energy is the energy that we look at, particularly say in the United States of America, where every country or every country, I know, go out there, get it done, make it better than anybody else and succeed. Be successful. Look successful. Yeah, act successful, make it happen. It’s an exhausting and energy. It’s exhausting. It is it’s exhausting. And it is the energy that, you know, when you have some of that it’s great. Yeah, but if you’re, you’re three, and you’re a three on steroids, so to speak. Yeah, there’s no time for anything in your life that is going to do anything but see the goals and the ambition. And the power that you seek. The three A’s that I see, who are not healthy, do burn themselves out. And we all have some three in us. And if we’re in the workplace, you know, many of us tap into that three energy. And it’s really hard.

Dr. Mindy  

This is where I feel like women collectively are in a three energy because I feel like in order for us to keep up you know, we’ve been saying we put us in the boardrooms give us the same salary. And I’m all for that. And I think for some of us, I actually I think for all women, this has been a very big piece of what I’ve been teaching is that if you look at our hormones, progesterone, one of the major hormones that drives us men don’t have as much as we do demands that we rest. And if we don’t rest, we burn ourselves out. And what I see with women is that we are in this three energy where we’re just I got to do more, I got to perform more I got to get more likes and fall. logos on the on my socials. And that is taken us away from our authentic selves unless you’re afraid, very true. And then the other thing I would say about threes, my mom is a three. And here’s the classic example. She would throw these huge Christmas parties every year, it would be like hundreds of people that come to our house. The days leading up to that work shear held at our house, because everything had to look good. Everything had to be clean. For days, Mom was yelling at us saying clean this up, do that. And this. And then the minute the first guest walked in, she was the hostess with the most is and we were like exhausted at the corner. Like you have no idea what the hell went down here for the last three days. And every person would leave that party and they’d be like, this is the best Christmas party I come to all year all year and my sister and I would be like, of course it is. Because that’s what my mom does is she makes everything the best. And it’s exhausting.

Dr. E  

Well, it’s funny, because threes and ones are lookalike typed. Yeah. In that way. You just described Christmas in our house. Oh, yeah. Like it’s the that’s the beauty about getting a little bit older. Yeah. And coming into another season, because now it’s like, yeah, what plates do you all want to write? Okay, let’s get one out of the kitchen cabinet. I don’t care. Yeah, my mom’s not like that. Yes. And also another way that you can tell the difference in the type because that three energy of everything being the best. Yeah. You know, that just really is something that is hard to let go of. Now. That’s the work of the three. Yeah. Rather than making sure that everything is is the best, right? You know, a one, it’s got to be perfect. The three it’s got to be the best. Yeah. So it’s got to be better than it was last year. Oh, wow. It’s really important to you know, kind of keep upping the ante. I did it this way. Last year, when I think that we’re going to have not just super we’re going to have soup. And I’m going to put the let me say I think we’ll go ahead and have special appetizer that I’ve never made before.

Dr. Mindy  

And so your favorite was the thing that came out my mom’s mouth all the time. Like this is the favorite. This is the favorite like, yeah, it’s incredible. Okay, what about the four?

Dr. E  

So the four, it’s really, I’d love to talk about the four because four was a particular energy that I struggled with when I was learning the Enneagram. I thought of that as a very sad type. And I always have to give credit words do. Russ Hudson, who’s a good friend and very much was a teacher and mentor. As I was learning the Enneagram. He said one day that forests are the holders of the beauty in the world. Oh,

Dr. Mindy  

yes. The forest? I know. Yeah, yes. And it changed

Dr. E  

my whole perspective on the for energy. And not only are forests, the holder of the beauty in the world, but at a price to them to them at a price. So forests hold a certain reservoir of melancholy. That’s kind of with them all the time. The force that I have known and worked with, and taught and studied with, have a ability to go right back to a moment of sadness, at any point in time, and they can be in that, you know, that painful place again, you know, for your if we suffer a loss, the morning that we wake up, and we’re not thinking about that loss, we say to ourselves, okay, I’m, I’m getting through the grieving process. We’re at point four, when there’s a recognition that they’re not thinking about that anymore. There’s a feeling of, I’m losing touch with this person that I used to be. Yes, exactly. So it’s, it’s fascinating. One of the ways that fours manifest in the world is by using that energy to create some of the beauty that we all get to appreciate. Most fours have some creative ability, whether it’s writing or dancing, or you know, art,

Dr. Mindy  

I was gonna say are like, when we were here in LA, like a lot of Hollywood. Yeah, is probably fours.

Dr. E  

Yes. Not uncommon to be able to get up on a stage or in front of the screen and do something amazing, you know, just an amazing transformation or it’s like transmuting the pain Yep. into something beautiful and bringing it out into the

Dr. Mindy  

world. My other experience with fours and this is something that has really helped me and I Get and understand the Enneagram is they feel like nobody understands them. And I will hear that from my friends that are fours that they’ll, you know, like, I have an intuition about something that nobody else understands. How do you help that person? Because, you know, I feel like well, I want to understand talk to me about that I’m here to be present with that. And there does send tend to be a little bit of like, I can’t explain it to you. Like,

Dr. E  

it’s something to think about is in many ways, we don’t understand, because we’re not fully you never understand that we still have for energy. Yeah. So of course, the more work that we have done as individuals, yeah, the more the closer, we come to being able to understand what the point for energy is saying in from that space is really what you don’t understand is that life for you, is just easier than it is for me. I can’t really put it into words, but it feels like your life just seems so much smoother. And you know, there’s not the same level of complexity. I’ll give you an example. We were on vacation one year, and we were with another couple. And the woman the wife was, is a four. And her husband came down and put her purse next to her and took her suitcase out to put in the car. My husband came down and took my suitcase and my purse and put it in the car. We got in the car, we were driving out. And my friend said, Where’s my purse? And her husband said, I don’t know, I bogged down, I gave it to you. And she said, I didn’t realize it. And she said, Do you have your purse? I said, Well, I do. Yeah, Jean Bartlett and put in the car. And I saw this look of frustration that went across her face. And we talked about it later. And what she said to me, just explained it beautifully. She said I don’t envy the fact that your husband does little things for you the way that he does, I’m so glad you have that I see it all the time. I just wished that I had a little more of that in my life, that people would just do these little things for me, without me having to ask for it. You know, so So random acts of kindness. Random. Exactly. It’s like that. It’s it’s a lens that says people are kinder to you than they are to me. Because

Dr. Mindy  

they’re feeling misunderstood. Yes. So any kind of act of kindness like that says, hey, I understand you. I care about you. Yes.

Dr. E  

Yeah. Language is important. Yeah, you don’t really understand. But you do care about That’s right. Okay. Yeah. So yes. So and another funny thing to think about, you know, sometimes children who are going to grow up to be fours are the easiest to identify. Because fours do not want to be you. They don’t want you to try to make them you. They just want to be true to who they were created to be like I have one of those hands. And the funniest thing is, you know, if you send a fourth child to school where they have to wear a uniform by the end of the school day, when they’re coming out to you to pick them up, they’ve done something to that uniform to make it look unique.

Unknown Speaker  

Oh my God, I

Dr. E  

don’t want to look like everybody. Yes. Okay. So the skirt is just kind of pulled up on one side and tuck the waistband or they’ve put the shoes on the wrong feet or one sock is up and one is down. Is some little strange thing. It’s been done to the hair. There’s just this laugh. What is it the series? It’s up now? Wednesday? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wednesday. Yeah. For Wednesday’s, for sure. Yeah, yeah. It’s

Dr. Mindy  

funny because again, not trying to type my children. But I would say that my daughter has a four energy. She’s so creative. She’s such a good painter. And when we went into middle school at a private school, she came, we really want her to go to the school. She got accepted. And she said, I don’t want to go there because I think they’re going to stifle my creativity. There you go. And I was like, Okay, that’s pretty profound. We’re not going there. But in my head, I was like, how do you know that in the seventh grade? So that is a really interesting analogous story.

Dr. E  

So I love that about four, because the four that exist in all of us at the healthy level is something that we need. Yeah, it’s knowing Yeah, you are. Yeah. No, it’s knowing yourself, knowing what you need, knowing what is going to actually help to move you forward. Right? Or what may feel stifling. And for is a very good at giving voice to that. Yeah. So

Dr. Mindy  

the force of my life really teach me the full emotional spectrum. And now that I have understand that I’m like, I’m grateful for that. And I’m in all their artistic capabilities to is profound. So okay, the five,

Dr. E  

that’s five. Okay, so one of the things that I will say is two, three and four are in the heart center at very different ways. twos, it’s about, you know, am I am I worthy, you know, do you? Am I worthy of love? threes? It is? Do you see how hard I work for love? And with fours? It is? Will I ever be able to handle? Okay, when we move from four to five, and I take the time to explain this, when you look at the actual Enneagram symbol, there’s a big gap between four and five. And the journey from four to five is what we sometimes call the dark night of the soul. Yeah, because when you go from the, from the heart center, to the head center, it there’s a journey. You know, there’s a shock point. Yeah. And, you know, who has not had a conflict between their head and their heart? Yeah, you know, it’s like, I love him so much. But I know that he’s not good for me, but I want him so badly. But I know he’s not good for me. Yeah. So it’s that shock point, that journey from the heart space to the headspace, that it’s profound. And when you look at it, even to see whether you reside in the heart center, or the head center, or the body Center, which we’ll go back to, but five is when you arrive at the head center, and fives, see the world in an entirely different way. fives, the five lands is the big picture. I like to think of the movie A Beautiful Mind. In that moment, when he was looking at the way all of the dots connected, you know, and it could see it in his head. The five really wants knowledge, wants information. And, you know, if you say to a five, what’s more important knowledge or power, it’s not even a question question. You know, it’s, well, how about knowledge or money? Right now, it’s still not a question. It’s knowledge, it’s information and always seeking to gain more knowledge. With the knowledge they can have the other things that they want. But fives tend to not have a lot of needs. If you learn just to learn to understand, five still like to be told to do something and given a little piece of information and told to just do something with this little piece of information in it. There’s a need to know where it began, where it is now and where it’s going in the future. So as a result of five we’ll take the really deep dive. Yeah. Another thing about fives for anyone that’s listening that may say yeah, I kind of like knowledge. Yeah, I’m thinking that could be me. Don’t disrespect of fives information, though. Do that. their information, their work that’s been done on trying to figure something out. And when it’s given to you, if you are dismissive. Five energy takes that information back and keeps it very close to the chest and doesn’t share it anymore. Why? Because they suffer fools. Yeah. Do not do not disrespect. Uh, fives work? Yeah. Because usually they’ve put a lot of work a lot of yeah, a lot of really. Yeah. And there’s also there’s a bit of intellectual arrogance.

Dr. Mindy  

I was just going to ask that because I, I’m thinking of some people who I know that are fives as their primary number. And there is a little bit of that, like, I know so much. It’s just too difficult. I’m not going to be able to explain it to you.

Dr. E  

So, you know, every type has some of that, yeah, that goes along with their energy. A with five it’s

Dr. Mindy  

there’s no way I can explain this. Yeah, it’s to to explain it’s too deep.

Dr. E  

And if you are not a person that they can see, will actually appreciate the information that they’re trying to share with you. Yeah. Then at that point, now, you know, and now, so this is true of fours and fives. You know, if you go to a cocktail party and someone comes over to you, and they start talking to you, you have no idea what they’re talking about, you know, and then eventually, they just sort of drift off. Yeah, well, you’re not to five. Yeah, you’re thinking yourself. I’m not sure what they said that that was a really deep

Speaker 1  

Yeah. Right. But they knew what they were with. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they

Dr. E  

tend to know a lot about many things. Yeah. But there’s usually something that very specific some something where there’s the deep dive, like the special and a really the special. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So that’s the five. Yeah, what about six, six. So the energy a point six is very anxious, primarily, because six is the energy of worst case scenario thinking. And I have a lot of compassion and empathy, of course, for all of the nine types, because there’s a different reason why we would go there. But when I think it’s six, I think, if I could come up with worst case scenario, thinking for everything. That’s got to be really difficult. But a healthy six learns what to do with that. Yeah. And the worst case scenario thinking actually creates the sense of urgency around preparedness. So if there’s ever going to be a national natural disaster or something, you want to know who you’re six,

Speaker 2  

to find, just like if you’re a party, bring your two. So the two canals, there’s natural disaster, grab your

Dr. E  

drag rent six friend, because they know the escape routes out of the city. I guarantee, oh, my God, I’ve got everything in the trunk of their car that’s needed. You know, one of the stories that I love to tell about sixes, one of my dearest friends in in Spain, and Lourdes speaks some English, and I speak some Spanish, and we communicate to the best of our ability, but we love each other beyond words. And we were on a cruise one time, and I always tell people, This is my story, and I’m sticking to it. I skipped the third grade where you learn geography. So I’m geographically challenged. And all I knew was we were taking a South American cruise for Christmas. And I was not prepared to go around the cold part. Oh, god. Okay, so we wake up in the morning, and I look out and I see sort of icy water and you know, and I’m going, what the heck, he said, South America, what did I pack shorts, bathing suit, sunglasses. I had this knock on the door, and it’s Lourdes. And she has a jacket, and a hat and some gloves. And she looked at me and in her best English, she said, I bought these for you. Because I thought you might not remember that we would be cold for part of the cruise and saying it’s good six. And I think about that all the time when I’m teaching because it was such a precious moment. And I’ll never forget it. Yeah, but that’s not unusual of the six energy. Yeah, you know, if you say you have a headache, and you’re around someone who happens to be a sixes say I have a headache. It’s not uncommon for a six to say well, what do you need a leave Excedrin? Or aspirin? You know, because it they’re carrying it there in their back? Ya know? It’s just they’re prepared for every moment.

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah. prepared and loyal. Yeah. Loyalty I will not miss the loyalty is loyal.

Dr. E  

I often call sixes last human standing. Yeah. Because at point six, they’re going to stay the course. And they’re going to be prepared for all of the possibilities. Yeah, nobody else thought of. Yeah, so that’s, you know, one of the beauties it’s

Dr. Mindy  

that you know, it’s the sixth is interesting, because, well, and as we move into the seventh, we’ll talk a little bit more about my energy, but I have I used to have a stronger six wing, and we used to think my son was a six. I’m not sure actually what he is, and now that I’ve begun this relation type himself, uh, but you know, when he was younger, we took him skiing one day, and or a lot. We went skiing a lot and he was like four years old, and there would be a bunch of us skiing down a hill, and I had him in between my legs during the pizza pie and He wouldn’t be so athletic, and he’d be yelling at me, he’d be like, you’re gonna kill me. And like, we’re going too fast. I’m like, I’m not gonna kill you, we’re gonna be fun. Like, there was so much fear that would go through him yet he would do it anyways. And I used to always think, at that time, I was like, Wow, he’s really very much a six has that sort of six energy. And then that worst case scenario I really resonate with, because I feel like I’ve been in multiple times of my life where I’m like, well, let’s make sure we’re really clear on all the horrible things can go wrong. And if we can fix those, then I can relax. And and so I find that interesting. But both of us both my son and I are fiercely loyal. We are that is to a fault. Like, you know, I will be I will there will be people who have worked for me 20 years ago, that showed up in a way that was so I was so appreciated above if they show up at my front door, I would do anything for them. And he is exactly the same way now. I’m not a six I don’t know what he is. But that six energy of loyalty and worst case scenario I I really resonate

Dr. E  

with it was six energy is an energy that will do it afraid. Yeah, dude. Yeah, no, yeah, they might be screaming, you know, you’re gonna kill them. But they’re still there.

Dr. Mindy  

They’re still we didn’t we didn’t move from it any, any would say let’s do it again. Yeah, it was really interesting. And yell, you’re gonna kill me all the way down. All right, we’ll just keep telling you that you’re gonna kill me. But we let’s keep going. So

Dr. E  

an important thing, because you talked about your energy, which are going to naturally just seven, but the influence of six. So just for people who are listening, being aware that, yes, we have a dominant energy. And then we have an energy on either side, right, which are the numbers that are on either side of that dominant energy. And the way that I explained that is, you know, your dominant energy is like, like the steak, right? And the energies on either side are like the seasoning. You know, some people like their steak just naked, right? You know, but some people like little teriyaki sauce, other people just want salt and pepper. So there’s an influence that comes from what we call the wings, which are right. And I have taught people, you know, when I’m doing Enneagram work that you that were absolutely by Wingull

Unknown Speaker  

Yeah, I went.

Dr. Mindy  

Well, and that’s what I mean, it’s so people listening, if they’re like, why sound like a lot of those numbers, you can be that primary number, and then you can move to your wings. So you could be close to a number next to you.

Dr. E  

Yes, absolutely access the energy. And that’s what I want people to do to recognize that your primary energy does not change. You’re not one type at work and another type at home. You are what you were born to be. Yeah. However, there are different influences. And some of the influence can come from your wings and other things as well. So then we move on to setback number that bats number of newly I’m a newly born again, death knell. Again, seven, I know, well, anyone who watches you, anyone who loves you can see the seven energy, you are enthusiastic, you are passionate. You throw yourself into what you’re doing, and you’re contagious. You’re literally contagious. Your energy is so uplifting, that, you know it just makes people want to follow you. One of the things that that when I was in the early days of studying the Enneagram. And I was going around trying to figure out the numbers. Well, maybe I’m a seven, I’ve always had seven and nd thank God, everybody want to be seven? Not everybody. Some people want them to want some of the some of the other qualities but the thing I remember that one of the people that was studying with me that knew their particular type at the time, and I didn’t know mine. And he, he said to me, he said, Well, you know, if you were a seven, I said why would I know I was a seven he says sevens just have it, and they know they have it. I said well, what’s it he said? I don’t know. But sevens? No. Seven as a Yeah, okay. I’m not sure what you’re talking about even. But there is something about the energy of the seven. It’s the high vibration. You know, it’s the way that whatever it is, if it’s possible, even if it’s impossible, sevens feel like they can make it

Dr. Mindy  

possible. I don’t think anything’s impact There’s, like,

Dr. E  

I rest my case. Literally,

Dr. Mindy  

I’m like in my brain. I’m like, everything is possible. Yeah.

Dr. E  

And all of those ideas of how it couldn’t be possible go through your brain. Yeah. So you know what I said to you more ideas before breakfast that most people have in the lifetime, but I didn’t say more good idea. Yeah, for sure. Ideas. All right. So seven, often has white lightning, you know, coming out of the head. The challenge for seven is recognizing that you can do painful things and you won’t get trapped there. Sit, okay, tell me that more. You can do things that are painful things that are sad, that are hard and come out of it and come out of it. God won’t get trapped there. So sevens operate almost like they have some sort of radar. And when things are going down sevens can sense it energetically. And they’re up and out of there. Oh, yeah. We don’t like pain don’t like pain at all. Don’t like pay. That’s how you were confusing. The pain with conflict. That’s how you could think that you are another tie? Yes. Because it feels like conflict avoidance would it’s really, it’s paying Yeah, avoidance. Discomfort avoidance. Yeah. So that’s different from just conflict sevens can do the heck out of conflict. Yeah, yeah. So you

Dr. Mindy  

know, you know, it’s interesting. I would say, though, I may be going this long, not knowing I was a seven, I have learned so much from my four friends. Yeah, I really and from having what could be I’m gonna let her type herself, but maybe my daughter being a forest. And just I am in admiration of the ability to go into those deeper, darker emotions, because I don’t naturally crave that. And I want to know, like, how do you survive that? How do you go in there. So they’ve taught me a lot about opening up that emotional spectrum. And then once I’ve gotten there, I do want to come back to positivity pretty quickly.

Dr. E  

And the good thing is allowing yourself to go there. Yeah. And it’s wonderful that you had the guidance of forests, right? Because forests can do empathy and pay Oh, so well, very well, yeah. And we’ll stay with you, you know, we’ll stay with you. And, yeah, get you through it. But you know, sometimes sevens to me get a bad rap. Because there is a lack of understanding. And sevens are made to feel like they are too much, or sometimes even described as flaky, which is really annoying. It’s annoying when you stereotype any of the energies. But for instance, what will happen with the with a seven is when they have not matured into a space where they understand how to work with the energy that they have. So there is an avoidance of pain. And that avoidance of pain is real. Yeah. Because they don’t know how to do it, then yeah, cuz they don’t have that skill. They don’t have it yet. And all of us are. On any given day, I really give a sort of a, a free zone for people to try to understand that. Most of the time, we’re just doing the best we can, right. You know, if we knew better to quote Maya Angelou, we, if we knew better, we would do better. Yeah. But if we don’t know better than we just do, what we know how to do. So you know that pain is uncomfortable, you stay away? Well, a common scenario may be you may have a parent that ends up going to the hospital, you know, like hospitals.

Dr. Mindy  

I did that just two weeks ago. No,

Dr. E  

I don’t do I spills. I’ll take care of mom when she comes home. Don’t make me go to the hospital with me. And people will say, well, that’s just awful. You know, your mother, your father’s in the hospital, just go to the hospital. Well, you don’t even know why you don’t like hospitals. You just know that there’s an energy that you step into that you don’t know what to do with it. Yeah. This is one of the many reasons that the Enneagram is so liberating. Yeah. Because now you understand, Okay, I’m a seven. This stuff is hard for me. Yeah. But when you understand it, then you can deal with it. Yeah. And you can take the steps that you need to take to be able to function.

Dr. Mindy  

It’s so funny. You said that because so my mom just had shoulder surgery. And my dad and I, at the end of a very long day are sitting in the waiting room waiting for her to come out of the surgery, and it’s taking like an hour longer and he’s asleep. But, and he’s pacing up and down. And I turned to him and I was like, you know, of the two family members were the worst ones to be.

Unknown Speaker  

At, he’s like, I know, I’m

Dr. Mindy  

like, It’s okay, as dad, we’re gonna be fine. So it’s fun to use that example. So that’s,

Dr. E  

you know, and like I said, that would make another member of the family frustrated. Yeah, yeah, it’s your mother, go to the hospital and sit there, you know, it’s that kind of thing. But all of these things, you know, as, as you begin to look at the operating system, we recognize that that skill isn’t there. You know, it hasn’t been developed. But it’s a good thing to learn what skills we’re missing, what things we need to work with, in order to just be better humans. Yeah, exactly. So then we move to the Jaeger Yeah, go to the eight, the eight. So the eight, the challenger, large and in charge, like to be in control. And eights also can get a pretty bad rap because eights seventh and eighth energy are the two energies where you’re told that you’re too much, you know, tamp down, not so much. Sit, still be quiet, whatever. But with eight, the energy can be more controlled. And there’s some strategic watching, looking around. You know how sometimes you hear that men don’t like to sit with their back to the door. You know, there are a lot of men that really a lot of people that don’t like to sit with their backs to the door, and eight would be a likely person to not necessarily want to sit with their back to the door, right? Eights really are very oriented towards safety and security. They want to keep themselves safe, they do not like vulnerability. So an eight is not the person that wants to fall into your arms and cry. They’re not the people that want to bear their souls about everything in anything. They’re selective. They’ve got pretty good boundaries. Very good boundaries boundary and the boundaries are firm. Yep, interesting when sevens and eights are together, because eights have firm boundaries, sevens have not so sure, downgrades is a challenge. But with the the eight, the challenger just like the seven C’s possibility and everything. Eights also believe that they can do whatever needs to be done. Yeah, they can they can do it, they have the can do attitude. They do not like to sit around doing nothing. They want to get something accomplished. They don’t want people sitting around and doing nothing. And what eighths really do not like is a weak leadership, particularly weak leaders over them. Because if you’re a weak leader, you may get me and my people hurt or mess things up for us in a way that I’m going to have to deal with later. So eights admire string, and they try to be really bastions of strength, they like to show up a strong way. eights, not every eight is outrageously angry all the time. Ya know, I get a little frustrated with the stereotypes that people throw out there. When you have an eight, taking care of you, then you are protect, oh, you’re totally protected, you are protected. Eight is going to make sure that nobody gets to you and no harm comes to you. So the control is not always just about controlling people like turning them into puppets. But the control is very much about I’m going to control the environment here. I’m going to keep my people and myself safe and from harm. And I am going to try to do that. Without really always current creating a disruption. But sometimes, because eights can be so direct, far from the what they say and the way it lands. They don’t hear it the way you

Dr. Mindy  

receive it. Yes. It’s very cool. Yeah.

Dr. E  

So what an eight calls a conversation Yes. is often received as a confrontation. Yeah. And once an eight has confronted something, there’s no backing down. So you know, if you confront an eighth and you realize This may not have been a good idea. And you start trying to back out of the argument of the eight keeps moving forward, because now you’ve put it out there. Now we need to finish it. Yep. Now we need to talk about No, we’re going to we’re going to talk about this until start right now. Right? And the other energies are saying, I really, I didn’t mean to open this up. I’m really not trying to have this conversation. But if you open it up in eight wants to finish it. Yeah. So there’s a very direct style of communication. Yeah. And some people, like I said, Take it as aggressive and caustic. And sometimes it is, yeah. But the intention, when given the benefit of the doubt, is just to clear the air and to speak truth. Yeah. And it speak trust anyway. Anyone? Whether it’s up or down the ladder, it’s, you know, just tell it like it is a low Yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

they don’t they don’t want you to mince words. No, don’t say it. Tell me. I can take it, we can move forward. Yeah. So so both my sister and my husband are eights, very familiar with eights. what I admire about eights is they don’t seem to care what other people think of them. They care very much. Oh, really? Okay, so that’s like a facade. That’s interesting. Okay. So

Dr. E  

the reason that it’s believed that they don’t care is because eights have very soft hearts. And to show any sign of weakness, or like I care, what you say, is to show my heart. And if I show you my heart, you may wound me. I’m not letting you get they’re not letting you go that far. I’m not letting you go that deep. Right. And I think I shared with you earlier that one of the hardest things, even as a therapist, for me is watching an eight who has, you know, just sort of broken, yeah, got got got their hurt, you know, wounded in the heart. And yeah, and they don’t know what to do with it. Now. It’s like, there’s a whole sort of disintegration at the core. That’s very painful to watch. Yeah. So if you know, and not all eights know that, you know, everybody doesn’t know the Enneagram. Yeah. So you have people who are walking through the earth who are Enneagram, who are eights on the Enneagram. And that they have that energy. And they know that they don’t let people get but so far, kind of keep people at an arm’s distance. And they don’t know why they’re doing it. That it has to do with not wanting to have that vulnerability, right? Don’t stab me in the heart. Don’t stab me in the back. Trust is also very important. Yeah, trust and loyalty. Okay,

Dr. Mindy  

nine, the last number, the number I used to think I was and I’ve no longer this number. I feel so free. Sorry, for all the nine. Sorry,

Dr. E  

no, I know, I know. Nine is a lovely number. I am personally acquainted with nine I am in love with and married to a nine. And for all of the of all of the energies on the Enneagram the nine is the most approachable. You know, they just have sort of a laid back calm, easygoing demeanor until they don’t,

Unknown Speaker  

until

Dr. E  

rage. But nines move through life, sometimes in a fashion where they’re kind of sleepwalking. That’s how they can stay so laid back and calm. It’s don’t disturb my peace. To be a song, don’t disturb this groove makes me think about nines, you know, everything is just kind of going and I’m gonna go with the flow. And please don’t mess up the flow. And when you mess up the flow of a nine, then you get the grumpy nine. And you don’t want to have to deal with that. But one of the things that’s interesting about this piece that the nine tries to maintain is the way that they maintain it. And part of that is by detaching or disconnecting nines. Most nines have I know, admit to having caves, they cave maybe their car. You know, they’ll come home from work and they’ll sit in their car listening to the music for 2030 minutes before they get out of the car and go into the house for the enter the chaos. The nine is the one who’s really saying Why can’t people just get along? Yeah, because they want the peace for themselves when they can have the peace. If there are other people interrupting the peaceful ride, right and as human beings we love to interrupt people’s pace. Yeah, so nines, perfect routines, many of them going from one place to the next without having to think about it. Because then everything, then everything moves smoothly. I used I tell this story about how when we lived in Maryland, My husband would get up in the morning on the weekends, he had his routine, he would go and gather the clothes he was going to take to do dry cleaners, and he’d wash his car, and then he go to the dollar store. And he just had a routine get his coffee. And you know, houses have one squeaky step. Yeah, you know, I would wait until I heard that squeak on the step. And I jump up out of the bed. And I’d say, Honey, would you mind taking this blouse to the cleaners when you go? And he would look at me like I was holding a shotgun. I would think for the longest time, I just couldn’t understand he was going to the cleaners anyway. Right? What I recognized was, now when he went into cleaners, he was going to have to have a conversation with the person behind the desk, because she liked my clothes. And then she was going to want to know, where did she get this? And all this is lovely. And well, do you think that she’s going to oh, I don’t know if I want to get this spot out. Because it might mess up the material, all those decisions, oh, that doesn’t want to hear that. No, to drop off his bad st stuff in it, walk out and then go on and get his coffee and then continue to save. But now if he’s gonna have to wake up and interact with this other human being, and I would just chuckle because I just wait for that stare.

Speaker 1  

Oh, my God, that sounds like a mean trick. Oh, why

Unknown Speaker  

Oh, so much love.

Dr. Mindy  

So, so one, thank you for going through all that. And I and as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, this is going to be such a great episode for people to really just get a real good understanding of the depth of the of the Enneagram. And I hope that people not only hear themselves in it, but they hear their loved ones in it. Because it at the root for me what I truly feel is that it gives us compassion for our differences. That

Dr. E  

is correct. That is the you know, if there was ever something that was devised to come into the world, to help us to understand love, and have more compassion for one another. Yeah. It’s, it’s it was such a tool, you know, and I and I want to I want to say this carefully and intentionally because the Enneagram does not override your religion, your faith, anything that you believe, actually supports it undergirds? Any, any faith. Yeah. And he’s any type of connection that you may believe that you have to higher intelligence or higher power. It shows you a system of how people view the world differently. And it shows you where they struggle. And what may be hard, what makes their lives difficult. And it allows you to have empathy and compassion for yourself. Yes. And for others. I know that in the early days of studying the Enneagram as I would go through each type. And I would hear about the struggle of each individual energy on the Enneagram. I would wait, Nick, because we all have struggle. We all struggle, struggle and struggle in different way. Yeah. We all have struggles through just different Yeah. And what’s beautiful about it is that you when you recognize how different someone struggle is from yours. Yep. You recognize that Pain is pain. Yeah, it may be different. But it’s still painful, right? And sometimes it’s easier to have compassion and empathy for someone else. Yeah, this even half for yourself. Yeah. But that’s one of the reasons that I teach. You have to look at yourself first, and heal your own wounds. Because if you’re too wounded, you can’t have empathy for other people. Yeah. So true.

Dr. Mindy  

So talk about your two books, you have one coming out. And then you have one that’s really you know, so important, such an important topic. So talk a little bit about this. So

Dr. E  

coming out March 5 is Enneagram. Made Easy. That’s your everyone who sucks. It doesn’t know the Enneagram Yeah, and it gives you all the foundational pieces and elements of the Enneagram so that you can learn it. And for all the people who have studied the Enneagram for a while, and they’ve been trying to beat someone that they love over their head and bring them along on the journey. I can just give them the book now and I’m trying to force You belong. In this podcast, it could be like a combo. Exactly. Podcast and the book and then leave them alone. Yeah, we’ll come to it in their own time. So that’s a new brand Made Easy preorder. It’s available for pre order now, everywhere the books are sold and the audio but I did the audio book. And that brings me to No justice, no peace, which came out last year. But No justice, no peace is a book that was written for the times that we’re we’re living in right now. And it’s k n o w? No, no, no, no, just it’s one by one. Yes. You better know it, pointing finger, the one. But I say it’s written for the times that we’re living in now. Because it really is about taking that journey and looking at where you stand and how you’re showing up in the world. I believe that each and every one of us has a puzzle piece to put in place to make the world kinder and gentler, and to bring us together and to connect us. And wherever people are marginalized when we look at the categories of people who are marginalized, and where I use the term othering, where we are othering individuals based on race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, any of these things that we have taken and decided to put people over here and push out into the margins of society. We’re all doing it in some way, shape, form or fashion. And we have to look at how that looks. So no justice, and no peace really shows you the stages that you go through. And when you read it, you find yourself and it’s through the lens, the lens of the Enneagram. So let’s see the only book that’s been written like that, utilizing the Enneagram because that’s what I believe it is. It’s a great unifier. Yeah, it’s the great unifier. And we are all connected. And if we can learn to love and respect one another. One other point that I want to make, because I say this all the time. For so long, we have revered the concept of tolerance. And tolerance to me is really an ouch word. But when I hear tolerance, I hear my mother saying, Deborah, I will not tolerate that behavior. I will not put up with that. No one wants to be tolerated. And unfortunately, when we began practicing tolerance, there was a good intent. But we got stuck a tolerance. Yeah, tolerance is not acceptance. It’s not

Dr. Mindy  

inclusion. It’s like oh, yeah, I’ll

Dr. E  

deal with it. But I have I have to. And we should have evolved beyond that. Yeah, it’s fast. But if we stay stuck at tolerance, yep. And everyone suffers. Yep. And in reality, it’s not just people who are marginalized, that are suffering. Yep. It’s the people who are also actually perpetuating and participating in the marginalization. Because you’re doing something to the integrity of the core of your own character. Yeah. When you oppress or marginalize other people Yeah. So it’s, it’s something that we have to begin to look at, if we’re actually going to create a kinder, gentler world. And if I don’t put my piece of the puzzle up, then the people who have the pieces that fit around me, they can’t put their fists up either. There is no small action in this or this just what we all have to come together to do to heal humanity.

Dr. Mindy  

Okay, so how do people find you? Very

Dr. E  

easily Deborah egerton.com. So it’s D B orah. Egerton has one G and no, D E, G, E R T. O n.com. And there’s an Enneagram test. Oh, yeah, quiz. Yes, on your website, my website. And in right after Enneagram Made Easy comes out. There will also be the release of the nine journals. So there’s an individual journal for every type. And I think that people are going to have a really wonderful time learning about I will put links for all

Dr. Mindy  

of that. I’m so excited about that. So Okay, last question. This is a question I’ve been asked is kind of my new season question, because I think there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of nuance in this one. So what is health? What is health mean to you? And do you have a health goal right now that you’re shooting for? Yeah.

Dr. E  

Health, to me means the ability to be able to actually do what you came here to do, recognizing that this body has to be at a certain place of wellness, in order to be able to actually bring something out into the world, that is your purpose. And it’s not just about the Healthy body doing what you have to do to maintain the health and wellness of your own body. But it’s also about the health of your personality. So if you’re not doing something, if you’re not doing any inner work, if you’re not looking at the deterioration of your personality structure, then that’s also problematic, because I’ve met too many mean spirited, elderly people who never caught on to the reality that they were starting to disintegrate in terms of the health of their own being. Yeah, mentally. Yes. That’s so well said. Yeah. So that’s what would help me and it’s the whole of it, the inner and the outer. And we’ll miss the second one.

Dr. Mindy  

Do you have a health goal right now?

Dr. E  

My health goal is, and one of the things I mean, I love you forever, because I got off of my arthritis medication. After the five days of water fasting, the inflammation in my body laughed. So that was amazing. And I just loved you so much for that came off of unit eight. Yeah, but I wouldn’t have known about it if it wasn’t contagious. Dr. Mindy. Once you start watching you, it’s like, oh, wait, I’m just gonna watch this. One more. Now. Wait, I’m really done. No, wait, look she’s talking about. And then of course, I passed it on to all my friends. Now. We’re all doing it. So that’s a wonderful thing. But I also want to get more flexibility. It’s great. So yeah, yeah. So that’s it. Well, thank

Dr. Mindy  

you for everything you do. And thank you for just the detail in which you and the thoroughness in which you went through all the numbers because I know that this is a way of freeing everybody.

Dr. E  

You too. I love it. Thank you so much. Appreciate you.

Dr. Mindy Pelz  

Thank you so much for joining me in today’s episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we’d love to know about it. So please leave us a review, share it with your friends and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai