Know & Love Yourself First: Dating at 60 with Dr. Fiona Lambert

Dr. Mindy Pelz   Host on this episode of the RE center podcast, I bring you Fiona Lambert, and this discussion is definitely one I have never brought you, because it is about, how do you start dating in your 60s? And what you're gonna learn in this conversation is really more than just, how do you go back out there and start dating in your 60s or any any time that I mean, the whole conversation is really about a post divorce story, but we start the conversation at, how do you decide when it's time to leave a 30 year relationship, and how do you navigate moving from that long term relationship into your own life and then back out into a dating life? And there's a lot of really good nuggets in here that I think a lot of you will find some inspiration from Fiona is really good at articulating her journey. She has a really cool background, which I'll just pour out to you right now because it will inform you about why she's so clear on this new dating life that she has created for herself. So Fiona is a renowned fashion executive turned Wellness Advocate from the UK, and she transformed her health and fitness right before she turned 60. So you're gonna hear that there's a lot of cool things Fiona has done to change her life around right before 60, which I know many of you are in that place, and she has over 35 years in leadership in a major fashion brand and a thriving career as a mother, awesome entrepreneur and now an author of several books. Her best selling book, one that we talk a little bit about, is called invincible, not invisible, which is a phenomenal title. And the book we're going to talk about in this episode is 60 and single. Your Survival Guide to Dating. She actually starts it off with S A, S, S, A, S instead of s, O, S. So really cool concept, really cool woman. And what you're going to learn that I think you will find inspiring is, how do you navigate out of a marriage into independence and then in to another relationship? What does that look like? How do you deal with the rejection? How do you make sure you don't lose yourself again. How do you make sure you don't repeat old patterns? What kind of dating app do you go on? What do you wear to your first date? These are things that we discuss intimately here, and it's a really beautiful discussion with a woman who stood up for herself and made a decision that at 60, life was going to look different. So though I know a lot of you are navigating this moment, which is why I wanted to bring Fiona to you. And if, if it moves, you go grab her books, or both, both of the books. And as always, I hope this conversation enlightens you and gives you a lighter heart, a broader perspective and lead you to a more authentic you. Fiona Lambert enjoy. Welcome to the resetter podcast. This podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself again, if you have a passion for learning if you're looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you. Okay, well, let's start here, Fiona, let me just welcome you to the resetter podcast, where we have some pretty epic conversations on this platform that I don't have anywhere else, and I'm really excited to dive into this one with you. So let me just start off by saying, Welcome. Fiona Lambert   Oh, thank you. Honestly, I can't wait towards Gmail, what all the subjects that we thought there was in common in Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yes, agreed, agreed. So check this out. So I don't know it was maybe five to 10 years ago, when I was going through my perimenopausal experience, I was really deeply trying to understand, like, what how the brain changes, how hormones affect us. Like, I've spent a lot of time deep in research on this, and one of the things that I really wanted to understand is what the purpose of menopause was. And this is the premise of my whole next book. And one of the things that I discovered by looking through it, through the evolutionary lens, the neuroscience lens, looking at a feminist psychologist, is that I really think meta. Pause that moment where we transition out of our hormonal regularity is a moment in which we upgrade everything in our life. We look at our relationships, we look at our habits, we look at for me, it was my location. I didn't want to live where I was living anymore. But I think a lot of women go through this a moment where they look at everything in their life that they've built, and they decide, I'm going to keep that, I'm going to get rid of that, I'm going to upgrade this. And so I want to start this conversation off. I know your new book is about being 60 and single, but the other thing I heard is that there was a 31 year old marriage that ended in this process so, and I'm assuming that happened during your menopausal years. So I'm wondering if we can start at that part of your story. You know, how did that? How did you know you needed to leave? How did that unfold, and what was that like to do while going through menopause, Fiona Lambert   Oh, gosh. So I have to start by saying, actually, it's, it was tough. It was a tough decision. Yeah, yeah, you know, you don't have a relationship. And I still, I've still loved my husband. I don't think we liked each other anymore. And I think, as you say, I think the I my cycle happened quite my menopause came quite late. And I think everything that happened to me happened in my 60th year. You know, I got super fit, I got made redundant. But also I did decide that my marriage wasn't something that was going to work, or something that I wanted to embrace for the next 30 years, hopefully. And I think that, as you talk about menopause being a reset, I think it was this, you know, huge acceptance of going, you know, this is a it's a positive thing rather than a negative thing, and embrace it. And you know, why should I be accepting of something that is not bringing me joy? You know, I want to carry on having adventures. And I do think actually, you know, you change. You change. You know I, you know, I became, I became strong through work. I became accepting of the menopause and the change that brings. And I very much wanted to make that a positive effect versus a negative effect. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yes, I n and i This is why I wanted to bring this out before we dive into the topic of your next book, because this is happening to so many women, and I wanted to understand like when you look at 70% of divorces are initiated by women after 40 something has women looking at their relationships different, and there were two major things that I looked at that relate to what you just said. The first is, when our hormones come in, we have a we have a very relational brain. When we have a regular hormonal cycle. We access both our right and left Hemi hemispheres. We have a larger corpus callosum, which connects the two hemispheres, which makes our brains very relational, which basically means I'm willing to put your needs ahead of my own, because my brain can see the whole your, your feelings and my feelings. When estrogen drops, we go into a lateralized brain where we're no longer going right and left, cross front, referencing we're going, we're picking either I'm in my right brain or I'm in my left brain. And I believe this is the moment the people pleasing ends that 100% Yeah, right. So, so was it like an sort of a gradual time where you're like, this relationship isn't working. This relationship is what isn't working, and then maybe hitting a place where you were, like, I You said it earlier, like, I don't like who is showing up. I don't like me in this relationship. Fiona Lambert   Yes. And I think whether you you call it a, you know, a landmark age 60 was a bit of a, yeah, is, you know, it was something that I hit. As I said, it was a whole combination, I think people pleasing, actually, across the board, really, because, you know, I, you know, I changed my career, became an author, and actually ended up creating content as well. You know, my marriage style and I, actually, I am living my best life at the moment, because I stopped worrying. Well, you know, is the joy of no now it's saying no to things more often. And I think that that 16 was definitely an age where I thought, you know, I don't want to compromise anymore. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yes, and I want everybody who's listening to this to also be thinking. This isn't always in our relationship. Sometimes, like one of the places it landed for me is I could no longer live in the home I was living in. I was like, I need I can't do this town. I can't do this home. I need to be somewhere else. And I think a lot for a lot of us, that's there's these really big parts of our life that were like, No, can't do it. And Julie Gottman is a friend. And are you familiar with the gottmans and their I know so the gottmans have studied marriage in a lab as much as you can imagine that being more for decades, more than anybody any other researcher. And I actually was with her a month ago, and we were talking about the impact that menopause had on marriage. And one of the things she said is that when women realize their marriages are over or they're depressed within their marriage, it's because they've been saying yes all along to things they really wanted to say no to nd, and they just kept saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and then they get resentful in the marriage. Do you feel you made a lot of changes in your life? And I want to just make sure this conversation is more than just relationship changes you made career changes. You made fitness changes. Where do you think you those yeses were that your younger self was agreeing to things that she really wanted to say no to. Fiona Lambert   So I think my mike, I mean, I was had a fantastic career, which I loved, in fashion and you, but I think one of the things is you realize a lot of your self esteem is caught up in your role and and that is, you know, that brings on the people pleasing as well, because, you know, you're on a treadmill of being successful and continue to deliver and reputational. And I got made redundant at 60, and I stopped, instead of chasing another job, I decided, well, actually, I'm going to take some time out and get to my absolute kickest and almost sort of make 60 beginning and not see it as an end, and almost hopefully role model that, you know, there's loads of life to be had. And similarly, I guess with my marriage, I think I'd compromise a lot, you know, and made myself maybe a bit smaller. And, you know, whether it was the age or I hadn't realized the impact of the hormones on the on the left brain and right, right. So, you know, it was, it was, you know, there was something in my head. But I don't want to not be living a true Fiona, whether it was through work or in my marriage. And I, you know, I actually said to somebody the other evening, you know, I feel I'm being more me than I've ever been without, without the people facing Yeah, I Dr. Mindy Pelz   love that. And you know how many women are saying this right now, which is why I think our stories are really important to tell, because the other statistic that's haunted me for years is the most common time for a woman to commit suicide is from the decade from 45 to 55 and I believe so strongly that this is the time that that relational brain is changing. And so all of a sudden she starts to see that things aren't working in her life. What when you go to make a change, like, change a career, leave a leave a marriage, can you walk us through that process? Like, there has to be fear. Is there doubt? Is there? Like, how do you know to keep pushing through the pain and to knowing that you're going to get to the place you're at now, because I'm sure when you went in to your divorce, you didn't know you were going to be years later in the happiest place of your life. No, so no, yeah. Can you talk about that journey? Yeah, it's quite interesting. Fiona Lambert   How many people on both counts, said you're really brave, because I think, as you said, and you know, you quoted that statistic on suicide, you know, I didn't, I said it was hard, you know, it was, it was a really, really hard decision. And, you know, I suppose other people see it as hard, because a lot of people probably wouldn't make those steps. I think what's was helpful was actually having a group of very close friends who could see the difference in you and see you probably, you know, when you're in their company or a different person, and they see you being a different, you know, behaving differently, whether it was at work or in the marriage. And think and they, they are often the people that can bring the external viewpoint and give you the current, give you the courage, because they can see, yeah, past it, or unequally, people who've been through it as well. I guess it's quite interesting. Writing the book. I wish I'd read it actually before, before I start. Dating actually, because there's so much about finding yourself again. First, if you come out of a long relationship, you don't realize how much you have. You know you've got behaviors, or you've got connections that all of a sudden you've got to relearn being single again. You're definitely friends and connections, I think, are a great support at that time, because they see the potential in you, and maybe see how you how you behave differently in an alternative environment. Dr. Mindy Pelz   So powerful. So I did. I, you know, I I've also watched Jane Fonda for many years, who says that she would not be existing in her 80s now, if it hadn't been for her girlfriends. And I really do think a good, strong, grounded set of women to guide you through an experience like that is is mandatory. So I love, I love the way that you're stating this Jill, before we go into like I get, I want, I want to bring this to a place where people can learn how to thrive after 60 and start dating, but, but I, I feel like, where, what do we do with the self doubt? I mean, you had you, you go through this decision that you need to end this long term marriage that was probably safety for you, and, you know, a bit bumpy, and then you come out and where, where did you get how did you handle self doubt? Where did you get confidence to start a life over again? I always Fiona Lambert   think some of the best advice I've always been given is never overthink the future. You know, you can't change the past and you can't predict the future. All you can is is live the best today. And I think you could sit there going all of the what ifs, what if it doesn't work? What if I regret it? Whatever you know and you do that, do that, I think the best thing is to focus on the day. And you know you have to, you do have to love yourself first? You know you have to keep this affirmations about yourself, because that way you realize you don't need somebody to complete you. And you know you have that strength in yourself to be on your you know on your own, it's better, probably, to be on your own and have a sort of uncertain, uncertain certainty about it, versus being in a secure place that isn't making you happy. And you do, I think you do have to just keep reminding yourself that. And yeah, I think you know definitely you need to start that, loving yourself, Dating Yourself, you know, really embracing positive affirmations, celebrate what you're capable of on your own, and keep doing that every single day to build up your self esteem and remove those you know, sort of the doubt that always, always go in the what ifs, what ifs. Dr. Mindy Pelz   I can totally see that where fitness came into it for you, because I know you wrote your last book. I love the title, from invisible to invincible. Fiona Lambert   Yeah, invincible. Most invisible, yeah. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Oh, and yeah, I'm like that, because that has been a big thing. I keep saying, well, we should be invincible. If you look at our if you look at the brain changes that happen to us when we go through menopause, we were at work evolutionary heroines. We should be held up in high regard. Yet, you know, we so many women fear becoming invisible. So I'm curious how much fitness, like, if you went into your body, you got yourself fit. Like, how did that help you with confidence? 100% Fiona Lambert   I'm sure it did. I mean, again, I think a lot of women will be in a marriage almost thinking I'm never going to meet somebody else, or they've, you know, lost body confidence or, and I think you know that might be some of the reasons why people don't find that courage to leave, because, you know, they're worried they do need someone to compete, and then their lack of body confidence maybe stops that. I think being fit makes you stronger, mentally and physically. I mean, it does take, you know, it takes, it takes resilience. It takes you to have goals and achieve them. You know, you know your your self discipline, to do some exercise. It's, you know, you've got fabulous endorphins and dopamine, you know, running around your body making you feel great. So I think you know, and then you know, you're mentally and physically strong. So I think, you know, undeniably, getting to my fittest at 60 probably aided, you know, a decision that I could move on. And you know, I'm all for actually promoting as well. It's better to be strong and skinny at the moment as well. You know, I just think, you know there's, and there's absolutely no reason you know being, you know, building up your muscle as a as an older woman, is going to stand you in great stead for both your strength and your metabolism as you age. So, you know, I'm sort of out there being an advocate of going it's never too late, never too old. Get to your fittest. But I think it will. Only do that. It will help you mentally, you know, with your resilience and your confidence as well. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yeah, I that's what I've noticed about health in general. When life in my motto has been when life falls apart, start focusing on your health, because you can control that. You have more control over that. It'll reconnect yourself to to you, to yourself, it'll give you confidence, and it's, it's an action item that you can work, you can do to make yourself feel better. So I have used that go to when all everything in my life falls apart. I'm like, Okay, what I'm doubling down on my health now? What am I going to do to make myself even healthier? And sometimes fitness is a part of that. So I could really see Fiona Lambert   that, but it's an amazing it's an amazing investment. It's an investment into your future self as well. So, you know, it's a win, win Dr. Mindy Pelz   to rely. It's like, you don't need to rely on anybody. You're just like, Oh, I'm gonna do this for myself. I'm gonna build my own confidence up, and then see how life changes. It has been my absolute go to every time life falls apart, I work on another aspect of my health to bring back some strength, and then it oozes into my life. It's it's such a powerful tool. What were you? Were you? Were you? Were you working out a lot before, before 60? Or were you? Did you come to fitness later in life? No, Fiona Lambert   I was, I was fit, and I was probably, I was trained with a trainer once a week. I probably did. I discovered that doing 15 minutes of HIIT training like two or three times a week is phenomenal. I'd encourage anybody to do amazing. Agree, in the book I, you know, I talk about that because it's over very quickly. You burn lots of calories, and it raises your metabolism afterwards. So makes you, yeah, it's a fabulous, fabulous way of working out. But it was with 60 approaching, as I said, it was a bit of a it was, I was sort of, I know it sounds awful. I was dreading saying the age. And I thought, why is that? And I thought, I have to turn it into a positive so, you know, I took two months to get to my absolute, you know, absolute fittest. I up my training to the PT trainer twice a week, and I up my hip training to four times a week. But it isn't, there's no silver bullet. I, you know, I cut out sugar, I cut out alcohol, increased all of my protein, which, again, is a great thing to do anyway, as a woman, as you mature, you have a much higher protein concept in your diet. So, yeah, I was fit, but I, you know, there was a fabulous goal, orientated, actually, was a fabulous goal, yeah, to just to get to my fittest at 60, as a bit of a two fingers up to, you know, set to both society and having to say it, yeah, Dr. Mindy Pelz   yeah. It's a great goal. It's a great goal. It achieves a lot, a lot of different pieces. Okay, so this leads me to, how do you know you're ready to date again? I will say that I some of my closest friends, have ended their marriages and moved on, and I've spent a lot of time watching them go I'm never gonna date again, to finally coming to a place of I think I am gonna date again. What was what was that, that deciding factor for you that made you want to go out and and and connect with another human again? Yeah? Fiona Lambert   Well, hand on heart, I think I started too soon, and it's interesting having, yeah, I think it's interesting having, having written the book because I Yeah, it was, it was friends, of course, who encouraged me. It was sort of like the get back on the horse kind of analogy, really, oh my gosh. And actually, I wish I hadn't. I wish I hadn't. And the the first chapter in the book, and the book is called SAS 60, and single, your Survival Guide to Dating is about love yourself first and date yourself first and and I think you know really knowing what makes you tick, what you want from a relationship, what things you love doing, what make what brings you joy, what doesn't bring you know, saying no to things that don't bring you joy. And you know it's interesting as well. You certainly after a 31 year marriage as well. There are friends and connections as well. Yeah, we'll lose, you will lose. So, you know, there's a, there's a bit as well of establishing almost new friendship groups as well. And, you know, a new support group so, and it was interesting. I'm trying to think when so I finally was separated last April, getting through a Christmas New Year on my own. Was, was, was quite significant, though, because I was dreading it, and I'm, you know, sort of thinking this is gonna be really difficult, and it's my first single Christmas, and first single new year, actually, it's fine. And I thought, you know, I've grown up now, wow, yeah, I've, you know, it was, I think that's where I thought, that was the moment when I thought, I'm ready all the things I was anticipating feeling very nostalgic about or very sentimental about, actually, was okay, yeah, that was, that was my significant moment. But I had gone through a lot of, you know, you know, freshly from working, I was used to work in big teams with people, and obviously. Used to live in a man, you know, live with my husband in a marriage. I was on my own in a house. And, you know, I love company, and I'm very gregarious and very sociable. And you know, there were moments probably when I was lonely, and I had to, almost have to, as well, learn to be good in my own company, which, which is quite interesting. And again, I think, find finding yourself and being okay on your own is quite important as well before you start dating. Yep, Dr. Mindy Pelz   you know that it's another thing that I found in my research is that there's some pretty strong evidence that when we go into puberty as girls, we start getting societal messaging that you're good, you're worthy, if you're pleasing everybody around you. And so when we hit our menopausal years, we haven't really exercised that muscle. What do I want? And what I'm hearing you say is the moment of loneliness, or the moment of being alone provided you that opportunity to get to know yourself in a different way and get to know what you what you actually want, outside of the demands of other people around you. And I would, I would think that is scary and freeing all at the same time. Did you? What did you? What did you discover about yourself that you were shocked like in the alone, you can learn a lot. Was there anything you were shocked by in those first initial transition into a lump? Fiona Lambert   I I studied a lot more. Actually, I, you know, I sort of did a lot more reading and things. So I think that finding your own viewpoints and things through reading and education, you know, that aren't your joint views, you know, it gives you, it gives you the time to do that. I do think, you know, I think I've got very strong bonds with my mum and dad and my children as well. And actually, they, they become more important and different as well. Yeah, when it's not, not as a couple. And I mean, I love the outdoors, I love walking, I love climbing, and actually just having time doing that. And really, you know, I found time enjoying nature, which I've probably sacrificed some of that because my husband didn't enjoy as much, actually, so, so that was, that was great to actually, you know, find just how meditative. Actually, I'm not very good at meditating, yeah. I find, I find being outside and walking very meditative, Dr. Mindy Pelz   yeah, yeah. I mean, and all amazing things that I think the transition of menopause provides is that for all of us, whether people stay in relationships or leave a big part of age, like a girl, is my next book, and I really want to bring forward that it is that moment to step in and get to know yourself Because of the brain changes that have happened. So that was so beautifully stated. Okay, now you decide you're gonna go out and you're gonna date. I mean, in as a woman who's in a 30 plus year old marriage, I wouldn't even know where to begin. Like, do you go to a dating app? Like, we didn't have dating apps back then. Like, exactly, where do you start? Do you put a sign out? I'm ready. Like, how do you go after this? Oh, Fiona Lambert   my goodness. Nd, well, it's so funny because, you know, everybody goes, I could write a book about my dating stories, and I did. Yeah, there you go, yeah. So it was, it was just such a learning experience, as you said, you know, right? You know, I, you know, I deny that my husband at a nightclub where our eyes met across the dance floor. You know, that's, you know, that's how you used to meet people. It was whereas, you know, I say that I'd never, ever ventured on a dating app before. What's quite interesting now, because I do have a section on trying to meet people outside of dating apps, but gosh, it's hard now, you know, because the situation, you know, the way in, I'm going to say bars now, because of society's changes. Now people don't like to be, you know, they don't they're scared of approaching or they're worried it's going to come across wrong. And there's quite a lot of changes to how people behave now, I think, in a situation where you could go and approach a group of ladies or a group of gents or whatever, and talk to them, it's quite interesting changes. So, yeah, so I embarked on the world of dating apps. And, Dr. Mindy Pelz   gosh, it's the one you recommend. Is there? Wow, yeah. Fiona Lambert   So I think I tried six different ones in the end. And, yeah, yeah. Well, I think I started off on two, and then I thought, when it was a book, I thought, you know, I'm gonna have to, you know, experience a few more and how they work. So I reckon of the ones I went on, I recommended Bumble, which is the female female led app, actually, so, but, gosh, there was so. So I the section in the in the book, I talk about date yourself first learning about yourself. Then I do talk about, do you want from your next partner? Because you just don't necessarily want to go with what you've always wanted for and end up with don't. Real, don't repeat the same mistakes exactly that. And then I talk about actually writing your own profile and some tips on that, and how to which of the right sort of photographs. And I've got a great friend who's a professional matchmaker as well, and she supported me and gave me some advice as well, and then how to manage those first conversations. And because whether it's closed questions, you know yes and no questions don't get you anywhere. And you do find lots of men who gives one word answers, so trying to Winkle out some information is going to help you find the right person. And then there are some interesting characters that come out the woodwork. I'm trying to give everybody some tips on how to navigate them, whether it's sadly the Cougar hunters. There's lots of young gentlemen who I think, if you're an older woman, you're going to be desperate to date them, and you've got some narcissists on there and some misogynist and I'm giving tips on how to find them and spot them and, you know, dodge them. Yeah, so, and then, yeah, I do. Oh, my God, I love that. Yeah, there is. And then, yeah, there's tips on all the sort of terminology, which I've never used, the zombie and the ghosting and the breadcrumbing and all sorts of terminology that you need to know when you're dating online. Dr. Mindy Pelz   That's so funny. So so one of my closest friends who will probably listen to this episode and die that I'm telling this story, we were at a supermarket, and she got hit on by a good looking younger man. She's 60, and this guy must have been early 30s and or late 20s, early 30s, and we leave, and she was flirting with him in the supermarket, and we leave, and she's like, he just gave me his number. And I'm like, Are you serious? You like, Good, Fiona Lambert   yeah, he's Dr. Mindy Pelz   the same age as my son. I can't go and date that guy. So, so do you like, do you have to, like, put an age parameter. You do? You do? Yeah, how do you build out what what your boundaries are, and who you're going to attract? Well, Fiona Lambert  I think that part of the beginning about what do you want from a relationship is important. It's interesting because I started off, I think, I mean, I'm 62 and I think I put, I think put 4862 actually on my data parameters, too much information. But somebody said, Well, you should lower it, you know? And I think I did, in fairness, I think I dated a 43 year old for a little bit. But it is interesting what you said, because you know, whether it is this change in hormones and this strength you get, and this confidence you get, and the lack of people, the lack of people pleasing, yeah, and what you do find is it is unbelievably attractive to genuinely, there are 25 year old young men who say they are 45 in order to meet you. So they'll put their age as 45 so you think you'll meet, you know, you think you're being paired up with somebody who's 45 and actually they're 25 so I, you know what's, what's been fascinating to find out is actually, you know, these years are our best years, and this confidence we've got of stopping people pleasing is unbelievably attractive. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yeah, and don't you wish you had it when you were 25 Fiona Lambert   oh my gosh, I wish. Yeah, I so wish our younger selves, we were less worried about how we looked at body shape. And you know what other people thought of us. I Yeah, I've often talked about what I'd tell my 21 year olds off, and it would be, it would be worry less. It would be worry less, for sure. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so true. Okay, what was the first date like you went on, did you was that that was that the first couple of dates had to be weird? Was that hard? Yeah, back in back, Fiona Lambert   they were and I think, as I said, I think I probably ended, you know, I think my first couple of days were too early. So what was quite interesting at the beginning? I think I I started dating as if it was going to be a relationship, work, their work, versus, versus. So, you know, if I look back on those first dates, it was almost, you know, are they going to be, you know, looking, you know, looking forward to the second date or the third day, and, you know, talking about other commitments and things like that, whereas actually, now, and you know, I talk about this book as well, I think it's far better, you know, to take each date as it comes. And if you ever, if you have, if you have a great first date, then you'll end up having a second date, versus going into it thinking, have I met the next future Mr. Mr. Lamb, yeah, yeah. So, so, yeah. I think that they, you know, in hindsight, I was probably very scary, because I was probably, gosh, yeah, where should we go on holiday? No, I wasn't doing that. But I, you know, it's quite interesting. Yeah, one of those things to learn. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yeah, I can, I can see that through a woman's, you know, through being married for 30 years, I could see where you would probably go to that very quickly, because that's what you know, that that makes perfect sense to me. Did you have to set some i. Like, rules for yourself. Like, I'm not gonna kiss him on the first day. I'm not gonna sleep with him until we've had fun. Like, do you is there some protocol for that? Because that's changed in 30 years Fiona Lambert   as well. Yeah. Well, I think again, that's so personal. And part of, you know, part of the book I do talk about, you know, you know, there's, you know, bizarre questions you have to ask now that you probably didn't ask when you were ask when you were dating 30 years ago, this whole thing, are you exclusive or not? You know? So you know, so you know, the apps enable people to sort of do multiple dating, whereas I think if you sort of started going on with, you know, somebody, and you went on a first or second or third date, you'd sort of presume that that was your boyfriend in those days. Whereas, right, you know, now you actually have to have a very overt conversation to go, are we? Are we? Are we exclusive? Yet, you know, it's a, it's a very different thing. I mean, there is a technique in the book, because actually, when I was talking to people, a couple of people about writing it. People were saying, when, when do you get intimate with someone? You know when, what's the when's the right time? And it's entirely personal. But I think that work you do at the beginning about what do you want from a relationship, you shouldn't feel pressured into doing anything anybody else's way. You know whether it's right, you know who you're dating, or even girlfriends views of what they do. I think it's so personal, and that work you do on yourself first about what's important to you. You know what? What we know what, what are your boundaries are really important, Dr. Mindy Pelz   yeah, and important for all aspects of your life. You know, if you can figure it out before you go into a relationship and apply it in a relationship, you can probably apply it to, to all of your relationships, Fiona Lambert   yes, yes, it's same. I'm sure it's, you know, applying for jobs, you know, it's exactly the same thing, Dr. Mindy Pelz   right? And play, yeah, Fiona Lambert   I did have an analogy of, you know, actually, I've been made redundant more than once, but being made redundant and having that feeling of sort of rejection, and you were used to, you know, I had a full time career, and I went through lots of job interviews, and I was chasing every job interview and all the networking opportunities. And if somebody said the moves going on, applying to that, and true. And my there was having a fabulous life coach, actually, and he, when he I was doing all of this thing about chasing after jobs and, you know, and too much, that's what saying, too much of my self esteem was caught up in the role. So I sort of think here on, you know, I want another role, and actually learned to love myself. It's a really similar analogy. And he, you know, of you don't need, you know, finding the right job is better than finding any job, and finding the right is better than having any partner. And I have a fabulous life coach. He said to me, he said, you can have dog mind or stick mind. Sorry, dog mind or lion mind. And dog mind is you chase after ribbon stick. And it's exhausting. A lion sits on the prairie, spots its prey, waits for that and goes to that. And I think whether it's going for jobs or going for dating, I think you need a lion mind, not a job mind. So, yeah, Dr. Mindy Pelz   I can, I can imagine what did you did you come up against rejection? I think that would probably be some fear, would be not wanting to be rejected. Yeah, Fiona Lambert   and and yes. I mean, I clearly had, you know, dates that I would have liked to had another one with and for one reason, another went wrong. But again, that self esteem is really important, you know, I think the you've got to remember that even if you really like them, however much you throw at them, you know, it's their choice, and that loving yourself, first, you have to dig back into that again, they're just not your person. They're just not your person. I've got a big theory as well. If they're not right for you, you're not right for them. So or vice versa, Dr. Mindy Pelz   right? Yeah, it all works. Yeah. Are you currently in a relationship? Now? Fiona Lambert   No, no. Still single. So, but still have been single? Not. I think it's important not. I think it's important again. Maybe this is this thing about, you know, when you talked about our brains, I think it's really important not to settle, you know, to go, you know, you could, you know, it could be easy. Well, again, it's probably very personal, but I think I don't want to go for something that i is just about. I'm happy in a relationship, and it's somebody to come home to, or I would rather meet someone that compliments me rather than completes me and is somebody that share fabulous experiences with but I don't need them there, Dr. Mindy Pelz   right? Well, which would be the perfect way to approach every single relationship, and we should have been approaching it that way when we were in our 20s, right? And not like, Oh, this is a life thing that I check a box on. Or, you know, what do I need to complete me? I think that's the real difference, just in the trajectory of the way the female brain works. Is because we're so conditioned to, like, look outside of ourselves, to find happiness and to find work. Smoothiness. And then we go through menopause, and we start looking within ourselves, a question that a very good friend and I have spent hours and hours and hours discussing, because she is divorced, is what, why would you want to go back into a relationship? And what is the benefit of going back into a relationship when you have a brain that is now geared towards more inter ind, you know, independence. So I'm curious. I'm curious if, if you could articulate that, like, why? What would be the desire to go back into a relationship? Fiona Lambert   It's a very, very fair question. I've established new friendship groups with, you know, actually old and new girlfriends, actually, which I wish I'd had more of when I was married. I think I, you know, I sacrificed a lot of time with really good girlfriends. And again, it might be an age thing, but actually they but now it's even more important as well, you know. I think, you know, there's a reason things like, just like that. And four seasons. Or, you know, this sort of women power as we're sort of reaching a fabulous ages. How I describe it with when people go what you're looking for. I mean, I love, I love having experiences planned. I'm always planning adventures into my life, actually. So somebody I saw the other day that you should have a mega adventure once a year, and six mini adventures. And I've always got something to look forward to. I think it's nice to share those with people or someone close to you, that you can share that experience and and have joint memories of I'm doing with girlfriends, but I guess I'm thinking I would like a relationship that I could do that as well as, not instead of, but as well as, Dr. Mindy Pelz   yeah, it's funny, I again studying the menopausal brain for so long now, I have come up with three categories I think women fall or women are looking for in relationships when they enter their post menopausal years. One of them, I believe, is a relationship with yourself, like you've talked about, and you'll see when age like a girl comes out. I explain exactly why that is that we can no longer say yes, when we mean No, it's just neurologically not hardwired for us. The other one is exactly what you just said, which is a really important one. And I don't I wish men, I mean, I hope more men are listening to this podcast, but our friendships with our girlfriends are are magic and they're medicine, and a lot of times, relationships, especially marriages, become blocks to fostering our friendships with with our the women in our life that mean the world. And I think it's really interesting that as we get older, women tend to get more connected to their friends, and men tend to get more lonely. And yet that relationship is so important. I hear so many women say that they need their girlfriend time, and then that leaves a third box, which is what you're saying. Who am I sharing life with and and those, those collective memories of doing life together. But what I discovered in talking to my closest friend, who's now been divorced 10 years, and she's 58 and is that she's wants to go back out there. She's very, you know, open to it, but she doesn't want to give the alone time up, and she doesn't want to give up the friendship. So where does this person fit in when you're when you're out dating? I mean, do you have those kind of conversations? Because she and I joke about it. I'm like, What are you going to say on the first date? Like, I want to be with you. I just don't want to be with you all Fiona Lambert   the time. Yeah, I think that's, Hey, I've worked a kind of vetting procedure, and I'm sure everybody should as well. I I've got a statement that I want to find somebody interested and interesting, and I think finding someone who's got interest in their own life they want to share, but also their own interests, for me, is quite important, so that, yes, you value each other's independence as much as you value time together, and that makes you interested and interesting as well, because, you know, you've got conversations we had, the other interesting topic as well, though, with with age, and I don't know again, if any of your friends have this, there is a, well, there's a weird presumption that over 60 and that, you know, it's a reason again, to find someone if you don't want any intimacy. And there is, it's, you know, on one hand, you've got all of these, I'm going to say 25 to 45 year olds thinking you're going to be this fabulous older lady to date, and then, on the other hand, you've got gentlemen probably more your own age, asking a very coded way, Have you still got your mojo? Which basically means, yeah, Dr. Mindy Pelz   I'm like, embarrassed for them. Fiona Lambert   Oh. Idea? Well, it's trying to, yeah, so, so that's the it's, it's fascinating, really, that yeah, you're navigating all of those sort of questions as well. Dr. Mindy Pelz   I can totally What's the weirdest date you've been on? I can totally see why you wrote a book. It's the adventure. Fiona Lambert   Oh, I dated chapter. I think three. I think we had about three days, and I hadn't heard the expression for but my friend told me it's called errand dating. So every date we went on, he tied it into a task that he needed to do. What? Yeah. So one day was you have Costco in America do? Yes, yeah, yeah. One day was he said, Oh, you know, you ever been to a Costco? And I said, No. So he took on a date to Costco because he needed to go. And then another day he he deals with he buys furniture on Facebook marketplace, and he said, Oh, I'm over your way. Shall we meet there? Because then you can help me get this furniture into the car Dr. Mindy Pelz   with Danes, did you go Fiona Lambert   straight? I yeah, I think when the third drate involved third watching, that's when, that's when it was kind of, it was over Dr. Mindy Pelz   hysterical. I think I would have, I hate Costco, so I probably would have been out at the Costco. Fiona Lambert   That's insane. No, it's a thing. Erin dating. Dr. Mindy Pelz  Erin dating, the things you learn, talk really a little bit about what people can find in this book. Because one of the reasons I am excited to have this conversation with you is my audience is 45 to 65 is the bulk of who listens to this podcast, and women, mostly, and a lot of transition, lot of things going through their head. A lot of women trying to decide if they're going to leave marriages, trying to decide if they're going to stay in repair marriages, not knowing what the other side looks like. What can we find in this book that can guide women through get firmly standing in that next place with their relationships. And what advice would you give women right now who are really contemplating going back out there? I love the way you've stepped this, but what would you if there's a lot of fear? I have a good friend who has a really wants to go out into the world and date, but is really scared. So what kind of advice would you give there? Fiona Lambert   Well, I said, I when I started doing it, I just thought I could be a fabulous guinea pig for this, because I said it was all new to many and I didn't expect to be in this position. You know, 59 I didn't expect to be here. And, you know, at 60 I was and so it was, you know, that there is an element it, you know, you go slightly through the sort of grief, you know, the grief curve. So, you know, there's a you're going through the sort of shock of it all. I do think that exercise. And actually, irrespective of loving yourself first, you could read the first chapter the book, irrespective of what, irrespective of your personal situation, because the first chapter is about this, you know, finding self appreciation, self love, dating yourself first, and getting yourself in a fabulous, strong position, almost overcome those fears. Actually, if you didn't find someone, it's okay to be on your own, Dr. Mindy Pelz   right? So it's almost like you're neutral, exactly Fiona Lambert   that, yeah, yeah. So yeah, more than just you're in love with yourself, I think is, is a good place to be, yes. So I love that idea, yeah. And then I think the you know, you know, all the you know, I've never filled in a dating profile, so you know, there was all, you know, all the tips on doing that, and what photos to put on. And Dr. Mindy Pelz   do you put a do you put? I just have to know, do you put a real photo? Do you put a photo? Fiona Lambert   No, it's interesting. I put, I put real photos on and it and smiling photos. I mean, it's quite interesting, because I have, you know, clearly, I've talked to guys about this as well. And they are, they are, you know, I think I do the the do's and the don'ts and the don'ts were, don't put filtered photos on because the minute you turn up, you've already, you're done. Yeah, you're done. There's a lot of people who put very old photos, so whether they've aged or changed size, you know, there's a lot of people don't put smiling photos on. Lot of people wear sunglasses. I'm not that, you know, there is a little, yeah, there's, there's plenty of bad photos of men, I should say, as well. But they notice their feedback on ladies photos as well. And don't put photos of yourself in groups of people, so they can't spot who you are. So, so there's, you know, there's, there's tips on the photos. But also, not just from my perspective, there's, this is actually what guys have said about the photos as well. So, so there's that, and then, as I said, there's, you know, there's I've done, you know, test of all the, well, six different dating app, how to, you know, how do you engage in a conversation? And, you know, sieve the wheat out from the chaff and spot the spot, the odd characters that come, that will come up. And maybe the question. That you need to ask, What do you wear on a first date? Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yeah, oh yeah, because you were into fashion, how do you Fiona Lambert   wear? Well, I've got, I found out I got a work wardrobe, and I'd got used to doing lots of black tie events, black tie events and lots of gym kit. Funny enough. And I was thinking, What on earth do I was, what do I wear going on a day? But first and foremost, I think it's got to be something you feel confident in, you know. Because that's the thing that, you know. You don't want to sit there feeling like it's too tight or too short or too loose, you know, or too low cut or something. It's got to be something you feel comfortable in and feel fabulous in. So that's, yeah, you're going to radiate that then. And then I did. There is actually some I collated some stories as well from friends who met people outside of dating apps. So there obviously is actually two thirds of relationships do come from outside of dating apps. So there is a there is a world out there, there is a world out there, and but I think you just one of the biggest things is not to take it too seriously. If you, if you took every rejection or every bad day as a, as a, you know, I'm not, I'm never going to do this again. You've just got to enjoy that, enjoy the journey, really, rather than taking it too seriously and yourself too seriously, and not view it as, you know, view it as a date at a time, rather than this desperation that you've got to find another relationship. Yeah, as I said, you know, I think my last line in the book is, actually, you know, writing this, I am still single, but actually I am the best date I'm ever going to have. Yeah, and that's Dr. Mindy Pelz   the way we should again. We should have known that at 20, like, yeah, what? How awesome would have that, that would have been. So I just, I just love that, what kids think in this whole dating thing. Oh, my goodness me, yeah, Fiona Lambert   yeah, it's slightly hard, it's slightly hard, but ultimately, I just want you to be happy. So yeah, I think they've got over probably the initial shock of it. And so do Dr. Mindy Pelz   you tell do you talk to them about who you're dating and the dates you went on? And my Fiona Lambert   daughter a little bit actually, I'm very lucky. My daughter's 32 she's my best friend as well. So with it, yes, within reason, I I'll bounce stuff off her if I've met someone nice, she's one of the first ones to see the photos. So Dr. Mindy Pelz   instead of coming home to meet your parents, you got to bring them Fiona Lambert   home. I know it's quite funny, because it's a bit of a role reversal. She's going ice again. Are you definitely coming back? Though? Aren't you again? Yes, of course, I Dr. Mindy Pelz  Oh my gosh, yeah. Just love this. I love this. What a necessary book. I mean, there is so much in the zeitgeist right now about women making the decision to be independent when they go into their 60s. I think whether women stay married or not, there's also conversations. I love Esther Perel statement, I don't know if you've followed her work, but she said, You'll be most people will fall in love in their adult life. They'll fall in love two to three times. And for some people that will be with the same person, and for some people that will be different people. And I think there's a lot of pressure for us to when we get married in our 20s, like there's no way we can be the same person in our 50s and 60s. And there's a lot of pressure on the container of marriage to hold together despite the fact that you're a completely different person. So I think what you're bringing forward as far as helping women navigate that is is really important where, yeah, and I think Fiona Lambert   I've never heard still the splitters before and you had that hand. Oh, no, tell me. Tell me. What does it mean everybody's splitting up in most of the 50s and 60s with the silver splitter? Dr. Mindy Pelz   Yeah, I heard the Gray Divorce. Is what I've heard, too. So and, and, Fiona Lambert   oh, yeah. Is that better now? Yeah, just knocked it. Dr. Mindy Pelz   I think it's again. This is why I wrote the book that I wrote, and it'll, it'll be out in December, because there is, when you look at it from the hormonal changes causing a massive neurochemical shift in the brain, causing your brain to operate different I don't understand how we just slid into our post menopausal years without discussions like this, and what I think is so beautiful about where the world is now is more women like you are standing up and saying, that didn't work. I'm going to reconnect to myself, and now I'm going to find a new version of me in a new relationship. And there's so much to discover. Do you ever, do you ever think about who you would be right now, if you hadn't Fiona Lambert   left your marriage? Gosh, I certainly wouldn't be doing anything that I'm doing now. I don't think, I don't think I'd be an author, you know, I've ended up being a content creator, you know, sort of, you know, not stravin as very. Instagram account. I've got an Instagram account that's growing, and I think it is because I'm authentic and out there going, you can have fun and you can be single and you can wear clothes that some people will deem as inappropriate, but I'm enjoying my clothes and keeping fit, and I don't think I would be doing any of that, because it would have been too much. It would have been too much. So I'm out there, as a friend said, You're never too much. You're just right. So I'm out there making amazing, Dr. Mindy Pelz   amazing. I love that attitude, where do how? Where do people find you? How do they find your book? You might have to, you might end up after this podcast, you might get a whole like support group of women that are getting amazing together with you. Fiona Lambert   Yeah. So I'm, I'm on Instagram, on Fiona Lambert official, and the book is on Amazon, and other it's on other websites, but on in the US, I know it's, you'll find it there, and it is called SAS 60 and single, your Survival Guide to Dating. So it'll be available from July the eighth. It's published on July the eighth, but available for pre order. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Amazing, amazing. Well, thank you for writing this book. I can't wait to tell my friends who are single right now about it, because I've sat and listened to so many of those conversations that they have been really my favorite one was my, one of my closest friends says to me, I just need to go where they grow good men. Do you know where they go to grow good men? And I'm like, I don't know, but I'll ask the good men. Where you go to get to grow good men? So if now I'm gonna say, Oh, I don't know, but I here's a book. And the book, Fiona Lambert   yeah, show you perfect. I love that. You'll have to get definitely and let me know where she thinks of it. Dr. Mindy Pelz   I will. I will. So thank you, Fiona, and best of luck to you and the bug, and you're gonna have to come back when you if you get remarried, if you find a long term. Fiona Lambert   I hear social all Dr. Mindy Pelz   of a sudden became a lot more interesting. To me. Yeah, see what happens to Fiona. Fiona Lambert   Oh, I am sharing funny stories at the moment about the types of approaches. So, yeah, it's an interesting watch on my Instagram. Dr. Mindy Pelz   Amazing, amazing. Well, best of luck to you and everybody. Go grab Fiona's book and we'll report, we'll have you back when the story evolves into something even different. So I Fiona Lambert   appreciate you. Thanks Dr. Mindy Pelz   a lot. My pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it, so please leave us a review, share it with your friends and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.