How to Master Uncomfortable Interactions & Triumph with Jeff Krasno

Dr. Mindy 00:02-03:53 On this episode of the Resetter Podcast, I am bringing you Tamsen Fadal. Now, Tamsen is a force. If you're not familiar with her, she brings such a cool perspective to the menopause conversation because she's a journalist. She's not a doctor. She's not a health advocate. is really working to change the narrative around menopause. And if you're not familiar with Her work. Let me tell you a little bit about her, and then I want to launch into what you're going to learn in this conversation because it is truly one of a kind. So Tamson is an Emmy Award-winning journalist, a menopause advocate, documentary filmmaker, a content creator who left her 30-year career as a news anchor. To rewrite the narrative in menopause. So she put out a really epic documentary called The M Factor. which really became this ground breaking movement across America of women finally standing up and saying, Yes, I have These symptoms of menopause, and they are affecting my quality of life. Tamson was really gets a lot of credit for rallying doctors together, rallying women together To open this conversation up. Now, what I wanted to do with this conversation with her is I really wanted to take a 30,000-foot view. Of the menopause conversation. Because as you've heard me say before, and you're going to hear it in this conversation, that we've really gone from a cultural hush to cultural chaos. And I know that many of us are confused. We're confused as to Patch or Cream We're confused as to whether we have the right doctor or not. We're confused as to how long these symptoms are going to last, what kind of lifestyles we should change. What changes do we need to make? So in this conversation, Tamsen and I go through what do we know in 2025 about the best practices for menopausing. How do you talk to your spouse? How do you talk to your doctor? How do you talk to your workplace? How do you know what type of HRT you're going to need? Where does lifestyle fit in? All of this. Is discussed in this incredible conversation between Tamsen and I. And I'm really excited to bring it to you because I know that a lot of you get stuck And I've seen this with my patients. I've had this experience with myself where we get stuck in: did I eat enough protein? Did I fast long enough? Am I supposed to fast? Should I be doing a different type of workout? We get caught in those details. And what I wanted to do with Tamson is really give us a bigger framework to look at. Menopause from. And that's what we do in this incredible conversation with this beautiful woman. So, Tamsen Fadal How to menopause enjoy. Welcome to the Resetter Podcast. This podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself again. If you have a passion for learning, If you're looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you. Okay, well, Tamsen, first, I just have to welcome you to my podcast, which would be like me, the closest thing I could do to inviting you into my living room So, I'm super excited to have you here. So, just let's start off with a big welcome to you. Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here. Tamsen Fadal 03:53-03:55 I like being in your living room Dr. Mindy 03:55-05:04 Yes, there's a lot of great conversations that happen in my living room. But here's what I think is going to be really interesting to talk about. You have. Such a unique lens to the menopause conversation. Perhaps the most unique lens of anybody out there. And, you know, my clinic was a lifestyle clinic. I took women to the grocery store and taught them how to read labels. I helped family, you know, helped moms make good nutritious decisions for their kids. We talked about detox. And when we were doing those kind of conversations, nobody was doing lifestyle for women. Nobody was talking about hormones online. There was like a cultural hush around menopause. And in just like three years, like such a small amount of time, we've gone from not talking about it to everybody talking about it. So let's start off with this. Where do you feel like we are in the cultural conversation around menopause right now? What is it that is the tried and true? What are people gravitating towards? And what is it that women need to know right now? Tamsen Fadal 05:04-05:44 Yeah, it's a good question. And you're so right about it. When I go and I think back to three years ago and even five years ago, you know, we did a documentary. We're working on another one now. And we got a response like, There's no audience for it, it's a niche audience, nobody wants to talk about it. Now, I feel like we're in a place where I don't know that a lot of people don't want to talk about it because they want, you know. Because, which is a great is a great place to be as long as they're getting the right information, right? So, I think that there's a lot of conversation about it From a couple of different areas. Social media is one, the marketplace is another. Businesses and seeing how we can, you know, this is a big group of women that want a lot of answers. Tamsen Fadal 05:44-05:47 And obviously, businesses go, oh. Tamsen Fadal 05:47-06:30 What does that mean? And then I think that the third big place obviously is in workplace. And then we have politics and legislature and all those other areas. But I do think that there is a lot of confusion out there right now. But then I also say, okay, well, then let's we can work on some of that, but at least we've got it like pulled out into the culture and the atmosphere and the environment. And men aren't afraid to say it. I was in a meeting before I jumped on here and I said I literally saw the thermostat and it said 80 degrees. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm not sitting in a room like this. And I go, guys, I said, my patch isn't going to cut through 80 degrees. You got to. Fix that AC. And nobody felt weird about it. You know, nobody was like, oh gosh, Tamson again with the whole hot flash thing. Tamsen Fadal 06:30-06:33 So I do feel like happy that we're. Tamsen Fadal 06:33-06:39 We've got the words out there. Not everybody, but we've got the words out there. But I do think we need to tweak now a little bit. Dr. Mindy 06:39-07:27 Yeah. So the conversation has been started and One of the things that I realized, like this is from the hundreds of thousands of comments we get on YouTube and my socials, is that women are confused. We have like gone from a place where nobody was to do HRT and now everybody's to do HRT. But then there's little nuances in that. What if you don't get the right doctor? There's a learning curve for your dosage. Where does lifestyle fit into this? So can you talk a little bit about what we know culturally, like the experts right now, about HRT? When do we start it? How long do we need to be on it? What's the cultural message on this? Tamsen Fadal 07:28-08:31 Understanding of it. Yeah. And I also love to talk about some of the confusing parts because I think that that's what I'm seeing the same thing now erupting Competition, right, of the issues. So people don't really know where they got the fear, right, of hormone therapy. I mean, we kind of all You know it now, but there was a study in 2002 that I know you've talked about many, many times: the Women's Health Initiative, that scared the headline, scared a lot of women. So, in the back of our mind, somewhere, we have estrogen equals breast cancer, right? Because that's kind of what the media pulled from that, put into the headlines, scared women, scared doctors, scared medical institutions. And I wasn't around Reporting on those things then, or I don't remember it. But I do know now, fast forward 20 years later, three years ago, everybody was afraid of it Today, we're talking about it openly. I just started doing a video like post your patch, you know, so we could just kind of normalize the you know what that even means about it. But I think the biggest challenges we have right now is what is HRT slash Tamsen Fadal 08:31-08:36 MHT slash HT, you know, what is hormone therapy? Because that can be confusing, right? Tamsen Fadal 08:37-09:12 If you're just jumping into the conversation. And I'm a regular woman, so I feel like I'm almost a conduit between Like, you know, understanding what the doctors are saying and then finding a way to simplify it for a book or for the documentary. So I think, what is it? You know, what comprises of it? Could you say there's nuances? So, are we talking about vaginal? Are we talking about estrogen, progesterone, or testosterone? And then, in lifestyle, where lifestyle plays. And then, I think that the next area of confusion is: is it That I'm at risk because my mom, my mom did have breast cancer and died of breast cancer. Am I allowed to do that or am I not? Tamsen Fadal 09:12-09:15 And then I guess maybe the final one would be: I have a doctor that. Tamsen Fadal 09:15-09:44 Is telling me this or telling me that, telling me it's not safe for me, safe for me, or doesn't even want to have the conversation. So that's where all this confusion happens. So if we talk about the guidelines right now, you know, most women are able to should be Should be able to go to their doctor when they're in perimenopause, that time of you know, before you're in menopause where your period stops, where you know, you're no longer having a period. It could be birth control or it could be a form of hormone therapy. Tamsen Fadal 09:44-09:46 That could be a unfixed hormone therapy. Tamsen Fadal 09:47-10:00 And you're 51 years o On average, when you get, you know, when you go into menopause, some women before, some women after. And the guidelines, to my understanding, and you know this better than me, is that you can stay on hormone therapy for the rest of your life. Tamsen Fadal 10:01-10:02 And we have a lot of the Tamsen Fadal 10:02-10:31 The leading voices, doctors out there saying like that's the case. Now we have different guidelines. So, the guidelines that most people refer to are the menopause society. which says that if you're sixty or you're within ten years of that post that menopausal transition, then that's another conversation for you to be having individually with your doctor. When it comes to breast cancer, then that's another conversation. So you're right. There's so many nuances now in between things that are leaving women going, but what about me? Right. Dr. Mindy 10:33-12:02 Yeah. And I think this is the downside of social media. You know, I keep saying stop organizing your health around a 90 second reel. We've got to look at the experts and then ask ourselves how it fits for us. And it's interesting because I'm sort of seeing two sides of the HRT conversation. I actually when I the last leg of Age Like a Girl, we brought in an an editor who had worked with me on Fast Like a Girl. And one of the things that came up is that she's she's in her 60s. She said, me and my friends and I are upset. And we're upset because we weren't even given the option. So, what do we do now? And she was like, literally, and I was like, that's a very valid point. And then on the other side, we are getting messages from women that are like, I went to the doctor, I put a patch on, and nothing's helping. I feel worse. And then another part of the conversation we have is people like Mary Claire who are getting up and saying, well, actually, doctors haven't been trained in menopause. So it feels like the Wild, Wild West still a little bit. And are there ways we can engage our doctors in conversation? that keeps it open. They we don't get gas lit. We have we're in a collaborative experience. You've interviewed so many doctors. How do we know we're at the right doctor? And how do we have this conversation to get the nuance we need? Tamsen Fadal 12:03-13:11 Yeah, I love this question. And you're right, you know, and Dr. Mary Clare is right that we, a lot of doctors have not been trained about this. When we go back to what that study was. A lot of the doctors that I've interviewed, and especially for the last documentary we did, the M Factor Shredding the Silence on Menopause, doctors were like, I got two hours, I got no training, I did it myself. It really wasn't a conversation. We weren't even talking about perimenopause. And that's in the OBGYN discipline. That's not saying, we're not talking about our, you know, our cardiologist or our, you know, our whatever other, you know, other doctor we're talking about. We're talking about our general practitioner. We're talking about. O-B-G-Y-N, which is like what? But you know, there are a lot of incredible doctors out there that are learning on their own and that are educating themselves and are being certified by the Menopause Society that says, look. We're doing these extra hours. We're doing this continuing medical education so we can get them up to speed or beyond where a lot of the other doctors are not willing to have the conversation. So, when somebody says to me, How do I even know if it's the right doctor? You know, my answer is: one, are they willing to have the conversation? Tamsen Fadal 13:12-13:12 Right. Tamsen Fadal 13:12-13:20 Two, are they all or none with everything? Three, are they saying, okay, Maybe for you, hormone therapy is good, but maybe it's not okay. Tamsen Fadal 13:20-13:23 And maybe we need to incorporate these other parts of lifestyle. Tamsen Fadal 13:23-14:08 So I'm appreciative. To the doctors that are willing to go out there on social media and talk about this, and doctors that are willing to have the conversation, and doctors that are willing to have all the conversations. Because I don't think that I have seen that there is this. Here's the answer, and here's the only answer. And I think that everybody in this space will, most people in this space will tell you that: that we are still learning, that we have a lot of things that we have to focus on, that we're Going in front of the FDA to say, like, why do we have a black box label on, you know, localized vaginal estrogen when It's been deemed by now even most of the organizations all across the world to say it is safe for pretty much all women. So I think we're in the middle of a learning curve. Tamsen Fadal 14:08-14:09 There's no question about that. Tamsen Fadal 14:10-14:15 And unfortunately, and fortunately, the onus is on the woman. And that sucks in a lot of ways. Dr. Mindy 14:15-14:17 Always. It's terrible. Always. It is. Tamsen Fadal 14:17-15:00 It is. But the good news about that is, those 90-second reels are giving women questions to ask. And so even if we don't have all the answers with them, we do have. The questions, and that's what I hope that they use it. So don't use it as your diagnosis, but use it as a place to say, okay, Dr. So-and-so. Will you have this conversation with me? Am I at risk? Am I not at risk? Here's what I've learned. Are you willing to talk openly about it? And what other things do I have to implement? Because it's not hormone therapy is not a All are, you know, it's not the end-all of everything, it's going to handle a few of those symptoms, certain symptoms, very important ones, and deal with a lot of long-term health issues that we want. Tamsen Fadal 15:00-15:05 To talk about when it comes to women's health in midlife, which is your heart and your brain and your bones. Tamsen Fadal 15:05-15:21 And those are the things that we want to be talking about. And thank goodness for, you know. Doctors like Dr. Lisa Moscone, who is every single day in a research lab trying to figure out how we deal with and tackle Alzheimer's and women in menopause and what's going on next in our lives. Dr. Mindy 15:21-16:08 Yeah, Lisa's a great segue to my next thought on hormone replacement. And when I brought her on the podcast here when she was doing promoting the menopause brain She taught me about three times a woman's brain actually reorganizes itself. And I found this so fascinating that I ended up down Months and months in PubMed trying to really understand. And so it left me with this burning question that I've now written a book about, which is what is the purpose of menopause? And what I learned from Lisa was that there is a pruning away. The drop in estrogen is causing a pruning away of neurons we no longer need in our brain so that we can grow new neurons Tamsen Fadal 16:08-16:13 And in all the research I've done, those new neurons are built for leadership. Dr. Mindy 16:13-16:15 They're built for purpose. Tamsen Fadal 16:15-16:17 They're not meant, this is wisdom. Dr. Mindy 16:17-16:37 This is not your time to fade away. But the what signals the drop in the the change in the brain is the drop in hormones. So when we put a patch on, we also need to make sure that over time there is an adjustment to the dosage. Tamsen Fadal 16:37-16:44 Is that also what you're hearing? Should every year women be doing less and less and less? Dr. Mindy 16:44-16:49 Because we still want to be working naturally with what the body is meant to do. Tamsen Fadal 16:49-17:14 Yeah, I don't know if it's less and less, but I certainly know it's being aware of that. You know, so there's always the question about blood tests and like, but you know, my hormones are here one day, here one day. But when you get menopause and then you're starting with whether you've decided to do hormone therapy or not do hormone therapy, knowing that's where you can. Actually, know where your levels are, right? Because you're not all over the place. Like, perimenopause is like this, it's just all over the place. So, I just think it's that Chaotic area of it. Tamsen Fadal 17:14-17:19 And so, you know, for me, I've had to go up in some of my doses. Now I'm leveled out where I'm feeling good. Tamsen Fadal 17:19-18:01 But I will say I started out in a very small patch And then I had, and then I was like, oh my god, I still got these symptoms again. They started me as low a dose as possible. And now we've moved around a little bit. Now I go in and I get my consistent blood. Blood test. I'm on testosterone every six months. I go in and I make sure that it's not too much, it's not too little, that it's still doing what it needs to do. You know, I think that the the jury's out for me anyway on whether or not I take that and scale it back, because right now I'm feeling good where I am and I don't want to go back to where I wasn't feeling good. And I know that there's been a lot of talk of like you just stop it, you're going to revert yourself back and it won't have been very helpful. It's not going to keep replacing and replenishing like what you've lost, right? Dr. Mindy 18:01-18:03 Yeah, consistency Tamsen Fadal 18:03-18:14 Consistency, but I know there's a lot of women that are concerned about that. Like, how long do I have to be on this? You know, and it's not like it's an antibiotic. I mean, that's just not how that works, you know, where you do a 10, two den, 10 days, and we're done. Tamsen Fadal 18:14-18:14 And you're over. Tamsen Fadal 18:15-18:49 And you're over. But it's also where I think that we have an opportunity when we talk about the pruning of the brain to put ourselves in that first Disposition to say, What other changes can I make in my lifestyle? So that maybe that is also helpful in this process. And maybe I won't need as much. And I don't know if that's the case or not, but right now I'm where I am and I haven't gone up at all in two and a half years. And I feel like that's a win for me. You know, I feel like, okay, maybe my body is leveling out. My brain feels like I have memorization now. You know, and when I did an interview like this before, I had a conversation. I have notes in front of me. Tamsen Fadal 18:49-18:50 Oh, God, yes. I remember my own name. Tamsen Fadal 18:50-18:57 I'm like, Yeah. What did she ask me? But so I do feel different, but I want to keep feeling good different. Dr. Mindy 18:58-19:11 I have a funny story. So I, this is going to sound weird, but I. Sort of haphazardly ended up on Stephen Bartlett's Diary of the CEO. Like, don't tell him this, but when he invited me on. Tamsen Fadal 19:12-19:13 Like I didn't know who he was. Dr. Mindy 19:14-19:14 I know. Tamsen Fadal 19:14-19:15 Doctor. Dr. Mindy 19:15-19:20 I know. And this is I was like, oh, okay, who's this guy from England? Tamsen Fadal 19:20-19:23 And my staff was like, Yeah, we'll go on a plane. Dr. Mindy 19:24-19:32 Yeah, they're like, You're getting on a plane and you're going. And I was like, I'm a little tired. They're like, No, go. Like, literally, one of my staff members was like, You're going to go. Tamsen Fadal 19:32-19:34 I'm not going to let you not go. Dr. Mindy 19:34-20:02 So I go, yeah, I go and I sit down and like about five minutes in, I'm like, oh, this is kind of a big deal. This guy is kind of a big deal. And three and a half hours, a three and a half hour interview. And at the end, I wanted to grab his 31-year-old shirt and be like. Listen, you don't put a menopausal woman in a three and a half hour interview. Dr. Mindy 20:02-20:05 I don't know who you are But that is not okay. Tamsen Fadal 20:06-20:24 Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Well, I gotta say, first of all, I would have dragged you there myself If I'd have heard you were like doing it and then you were like debating. And second of all, you're so right about that. But, but I think, but I thank goodness for that because I can't even imagine what people have taken away from that interview. Dr. Mindy 20:24-20:36 you know yeah we have it was a huge interview there was like over 10 million views i remember i remember it was it was quite a moment well i mean there better be that many Three hours of you, you know, three hours of brilliant things said. Tamsen Fadal 20:37-21:13 But, you know, I do have to, I do want to say one thing is thank you to Doc Like you, that take your time and do this, that take your time and get out there and educate, that are constantly speaking and are constantly learning and are constantly doing the things you don't have To do, you know, once you're at this stage of your career and still doing it, and I can't say it enough, and I think it's really why I I think it's really why I decided, or I don't know, I just felt this need and desire and understanding of elevating these voices because I could see very clearly like I feel like myself as a journalist has always been a conduit, right? Tamsen Fadal 21:13-21:16 Between the information and the people who need it most. Tamsen Fadal 21:17-21:29 And so, and so I've in distilling it down. That it's easier to understand and simplified. And, like, even with my book, I'd get information in interviews, and I'm like, oh, I have brain fog. Tamsen Fadal 21:29-21:34 So I have to write this for somebody with brain fog because I've got it right now. And so I would go through that distill process. Tamsen Fadal 21:34-21:50 And the same thing with the documentary, you know, we would do. Hours of interviews and really have to distill down the areas that we would, you know, pull out to make it understandable. And so, I think that that's been something I've been so grateful. for with with doctors like yourself. So I know how many people that helped. Dr. Mindy 21:50-22:11 I just do. So thank you. Well, thank you. Thank you. There's a little behind the scenes. Which actually brings up a really interesting thing because several of my friends who are doctors and helping women We were really agitated for a long time that the only two people that were talking about hormones were Huberman and Peter Atia. Tamsen Fadal 22:11-22:15 And they would not, I mean, not to, I'm not dissing them, but. Dr. Mindy 22:15-22:22 What I want to point out is that for a long time, even our education was coming from men. Tamsen Fadal 22:22-22:25 And I kept listening to those and thinking. Dr. Mindy 22:25-22:51 You can tell me from an educated point of view, but you're not having the experience. So it skews the way in which you can speak about this. And then last week, two weeks ago, I interviewed Dr. Vonda Wright. I know she was just on your podcast. And she said something that I really loved. Which is, she's like, you need a doctor who can listen with her menopausal ears. Tamsen Fadal 22:51-22:55 Oh, so true. And I was like, that is important. Dr. Mindy 22:55-23:16 So do you feel like there's room? And this is just straight up You know, let's just call it what it is. Is there room for men to be educating us right now? Or do we really need to be looking at going to female doctors who have been in the experience that maybe have a different perspective? Or do we need not to get that nuanced? Tamsen Fadal 23:17-24:32 I mean, look, I think that at this point we need all the help we can get, right? In terms of helping women that are suffering. And so I don't want to Pull anybody out of that conversation, but I sure do really understand how I moved from a male doctor who said to me in his whole practice, and he wrote my patient portal in menopause, any questions. And that was the end of the conversation. It's where it began and where it ended. That was it. And I walked out of that place and I went, What in the world? I mean, that was my patient portal, those words when my tests came through, my blood tests came through. And I went to a, you know, I made my way around a few female doctors and ended up with one that is, you know, is absolutely incredible. But I do feel like there is a reason. that when you walk into a doctor, or I've walked into the doctors that I've had that are treating me for this stage in my life, they're around my age. Or they're close enough to my age where they understand what's coming up, you know, because they're either perimenopausal or menopausal. And I do feel like they understand. So I do think there's something to it. My own experience was that I had had that kind of ear. And now I have this kind of ear and this kind of ear feels better. Yeah. So I I don't I you know, look, I'm happy that I hear men talking about it. I'm happy that men are willing to have the conversation and not going Dr. Mindy 24:32-24:32 Really? Tamsen Fadal 24:32-24:40 I don't know. But I also do think that there is a lot of room for a lot more conversation coming from Tamsen Fadal 24:40-24:42 From women, and I think that that's when I got excited. Tamsen Fadal 24:42-24:52 You know, I left my job of 30 years as a journalist doing news to focus on this Entirely never thought it was anything I would ever, it never even crossed my mind to do. Tamsen Fadal 24:52-24:56 And I do feel like that's where a lot of the doctors in this space have done the same thing. Tamsen Fadal 24:56-25:09 They have kind of Left, you know, not delivering babies as much and moved now into this midlife care, which I have found very interesting, or something around that area, whether it's the lifestyle changes or strictly, you know, strictly hormones. Dr. Mindy 25:09-25:09 Yeah, yeah. Dr. Mindy 25:10-25:15 So you went out and did a book tour. I saw you pretty short after that. Tamsen Fadal 25:15-25:19 And I had a couple quests. Yeah, I know. I was like, you did? Speaker 6 25:19-25:28 Well, how did that go? Are you crazy? Oh my gosh, I know. I remember. I was like, I think I was comatose when I saw you. I was like, I don't know what I just did, but it was, it was great. Dr. Mindy 25:29-25:38 Well, book laundine, book lunging is a little above like that. Yeah, I'm actually, this is my Fourth book in five years. Tamsen Fadal 25:39-25:41 Oh my gosh. I don't think so. I told my. Dr. Mindy 25:41-25:48 Yeah, I told my publisher, I'm like, can we take a year bre Please, like, I like it's not just the writing the book, it's launching the book. Dr. Mindy 25:48-25:50 Like, this is a lot. Speaker 6 25:50-25:53 So, okay, so we're gonna take a little break after this next one. Dr. Mindy 25:53-26:08 Okay, but but I think for the longest time, if you Googled menopause symptoms, you would get hot flashes. And what I have now seen in my research is actually the number one symptom is irritability. That seems accurate. Tamsen Fadal 26:08-26:09 Irritability and anxiety. Yeah. Dr. Mindy 26:10-26:24 Yeah. So what did you notice when you went out and you talked to people and women that are absorbed your book and they're Learning how to menopause, I love the title of your book. Thank you. What where are the biggest hurdles they're coming up with? What are the biggest symptoms they're having? Tamsen Fadal 26:25-26:33 Yeah, well, I think the biggest hurdle is the confusion that you talked about early on. I really do. I go back to that. I don't think we can say that enough, right? Tamsen Fadal 26:33-26:34 And I think that that's the big hurdle. Tamsen Fadal 26:34-26:37 The second big hurdle is where to find a practition Tamsen Fadal 26:38-26:39 And so those are the two. Tamsen Fadal 26:39-27:26 And I think that telemedicine and telehealth have done an incredible job of helping move that needle along. I mean, but just move that along. The second area, which is interesting, so I went to I started out in New York and then I was in San Francisco and LA and Denver and Dallas and Miami and Chicago and New Jersey. And so it was, you know, it was all over the place. And it was interesting, a couple of things. The irritability is a big one, and then not understanding all these other symptoms that came together. But I think that one of the biggest symptoms that women are struggling with Was the lack of sleep and the brain fog. And I think it's because we're seeing more of these women staying in the workplace a lot longer, right? And being so aware of these symptoms in a bigger way because a lot of them are moving into different kinds of positions. Tamsen Fadal 27:26-27:29 A lot of them are dealing with that Tamsen Fadal 27:28-28:30 Everything that's going on that you and I have talked about before, dealing with elderly parents, dealing with children, whether they're there, still or left the nest, and then also dealing with Menopause, perimenopause at the same time. So I think that those would be the two big symptoms that women feel are impacting their lives the most. But I did find in every city, it was interesting to see how excited people were to come out and get together and talk. So, whether it was about the book or it was about the documentary. It wasn't so much those two things, but it was the coming together as a community and saying, Oh, wow, there's somebody here physically in person that can help me. So it was interesting when I got. Off of the online and did that in person, how women were just so grateful to be to be there with somebody who could listen. And then that brought me to really understand community in this space because I don' Think I think I underestimated community a little bit, honestly. Yeah, I was like, Oh, yeah, it's a couple of your friends that you know you go for walks with, but that's not what this is. This is a whole different definition of community now, and I'm in need. Dr. Mindy 28:30-29:18 And I think if you look, one of the things that I researched in my For Age Like a Girl was, you know, really what is the evolutionary reason behind menopause? And, you know, of course you find the grandmother hypothesis, which Lisa. pointed out in her book. So I actually brought Kristen Hawkes onto this podcast, and I interviewed her. And going towards more collaboration Is actually our evolutionary design as we move through menopause. And it's really crazy when you break it down because I never felt like in competition with other women. But primarily, when we have a reproductive system, if we were sitting around the cave waiting for a man to come back, this sounds so sexist, and I'm just going to say it. Tamsen Fadal 29:19-29:21 No, but it is what it is. Right. Dr. Mindy 29:21-30:31 If we were waiting for the man to bring the animal kill back, and then when he brought it back, he also brought his seed back. And there was like, you know, the fertile women were sitting there, you know, vying for his to for him to reproduce so that the species can continue. Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible. But but if you But it's our primal design that you can't take out of us even in a modern world. So I love what you just said because when we look at The menopause through the grandmother hypothesis, we actually are meant to have three things returned back to us: fitness, cognition, and social connection And the grandmothers, according to Lisa, calls them evolutionary heroines, that they were the ones that were keeping the tribe alive. So how do we create that in this online world, in this world that we're in isolation? thing you've seen. I mean, you did a hundred thousand people for your book launch. But like, how do we bring women together so they can feel heard in this moment? Tamsen Fadal 30:31-30:43 Yeah, I love that. And I think that we're still looking at all different ways to do it the right way. I think the way that, I think, how I realized it is this: you know, we. We did the M Factor documentary. We had no money. Tamsen Fadal 30:43-30:45 We had nobody wanted to fund it. Tamsen Fadal 30:45-31:53 You know, once we got into it and we actually talked to this Incredible, the person that helped us go through like the marketing of it city by city. And then that was very helpful. But when we went into this originally, it was like: there's no audience, there's no interest, no, no, no, no PBS wound up partnering and putting it on the air, and that was great. But we said, Well, but we want to, you know, that's like an airing of it. We want more women to see it. So we decided we're going to give it out to women and see what happens. So we were like, oh, maybe like 25 different groups will come together, want to show it. And they're saying, we've been over in over 800 cities in 45 countries now around the world Wow. The most exciting part of it is the women would take the documentary, they would organize a group themselves of 100 women in their city, whatever city it was. And then they would bring a panel up afterwards of other women to talk about their experience. Maybe a doctor would be there, maybe a community advocate would be there. What happened after those screenings, it always gives me chills, was the most important part of it, which was the community aspect of it, of the women sharing information about the doctors in their community. Tamsen Fadal 31:53-31:58 About the women sharing what their experiences were, of different groups that came together. Tamsen Fadal 31:58-32:04 One somebody reached out to us recently and said, Oh, there's a men's group that was started as a result of it. Of men talking about it. Tamsen Fadal 32:04-32:11 Amazing. So that's where that community part has happened. Now, how to mobilize that into a bigger way? I don't know that I've conquered yet. Tamsen Fadal 32:11-32:24 But I have seen it now go from online, which is, you know, is always going to be there, but seeing it go into these communities. So, the biggest thing I could say to somebody if they want to. Advocate for themselves or somebody else is to find a place to do that within their own community. Tamsen Fadal 32:24-32:30 I don't think any group is too small to feel good about that, whether it's a walk group, whether it's a Tamsen Fadal 32:30-32:36 You know, you want to go and, you know, and talk to your local lawmakers about, you know, what kind of changes, whether you do it in your workplace. Tamsen Fadal 32:36-32:38 So I think that that community Tamsen Fadal 32:38-32:48 You know, it might not be the big, large one, but like we did see it for the launch party, the world's hottest menopause party. I was like, all these people are coming together everywhere, let's bring them all together at once Dr. Mindy 32:48-32:55 So I feel like I want to give you the job of figuring out how to rally us all. Dr. Mindy 32:55-32:59 I appreciate your that answer, but I also think you're the gal. You're the galaxy. Dr. Mindy 33:00-33:05 Well, I might take that on. Yeah, maybe we need an even bigger menopause party. Tamsen Fadal 33:05-33:35 But don't you think, though, that that's where you see the actual change happen? Like, I don't know about you, but like anytime you go to something, and even where you and I met. You know, not a few months. When you bring that energy of women together like that, I feel like it's unstoppable. And I don't know that I would have felt that at 30. I mean, I would. I was in a workplace. I was working alongside women. I, you know, I would bring them up behind me or mentor or intern. But I don't ever think that I saw that or felt that before. Dr. Mindy 33:35-34:09 The desire. Yeah. And I think again, I go back to there's like an undercurrent of competition, whether you're in the workplace or you're out at the bar or whatever when we're in that reproductive or even on socials like I have a 25-year-old daughter, and I've watched her at 19 years old completely melt down because of something she saw on socials. So I think there is something that's unique about when we start to lose our cycle, we come together in such a beautiful way. Tamsen Fadal 34:09-34:11 And I keep thinking, how do we amplify that? Dr. Mindy 34:11-34:13 That's what we need to be doing. Tamsen Fadal 34:13-34:14 And I'm taking it on with you. Tamsen Fadal 34:15-34:16 Yeah, because you're right. Tamsen Fadal 34:16-34:23 But I mean, when you think about it. You and I, or I think we're around the same. I'm probably older than you. I think I'm older than you, right? Speaker 6 34:23-34:24 I'm 55. Tamsen Fadal 34:24-35:03 I'm 55. Okay, okay, so we're the same a And so we've been around, right, we've been around. We met as a result of this, right? That's how we met. We've probably crossed over in a lot of different areas, but we met as a result of And actively are working on our own, you know, in our own ways together and in our communities to continue to amplify this message. I don't know that we would have done that at thirty. I think maybe we would have been like, Oh, hi, hi, oh you have okay, I can help you with the book, I'm a journalist and and we went our merry ways And so I do feel something, and I don't know about you, but I feel like I could reach out to anybody that I've met within this community now and go, hey, can you do me a favor? Can you help me out with this? Tamsen Fadal 35:04-35:06 Or I need, you know, can you explain this to me? Tamsen Fadal 35:07-35:10 And so I'm hoping that women are starting to do that in their pockets too. Tamsen Fadal 35:10-35:11 And I'm starting to see that. Tamsen Fadal 35:11-35:22 And that's what was exciting to me on that book too early. We did 11 cities and then we did Vegas. Just started off. So, 12 cities. Wow. And I saw that everywhere. And it was cool. Yeah, it was really, it was really cool to see. Dr. Mindy 35:23-35:30 So, one of the other things you said to me when we met that really sat with me because I was. In the final stages of writing Age Like a Girl. Tamsen Fadal 35:30-35:30 Yeah, you were. Dr. Mindy 35:31-36:27 And it was something I really thought about in the book: is you had a woman come up to you at one of the book tours and say, Thank you so much for your book. It gave me the courage to divorce my husband. And I spent a lot of time with my collaborative writers saying, I don't want this to be. a divorce book. But there is a transformation that's going on where a lot of women are standing up and saying no more. And the husbands, we'll just stay on heterosexual relationships here, that they are like, what is going on? I liked who you were. I don't know who you're becoming Talk to me a little bit about what you've seen, because you addressed divorce in your book. How does a woman know if it's Just a life shift, if it's her husband, does she need to leave? Like, there's a lot of confusion around that as well. Tamsen Fadal 36:27-36:38 Yeah, I agree with you. I'm so glad you brought that up because I don't think we talk about it quite enough. I hesitated too. I was like, am I putting relationships in this book and dating? Like, does that go in a menopause book Tamsen Fadal 36:38-36:39 Like, that doesn't make any sense. Tamsen Fadal 36:39-36:59 And even, you know, when I went to my publisher and they were like, what, you're doing the whole chapter on it? And I was like, yeah, I think we need a whole chapter on it. And there was a couple of reasons. One, because we certainly have seen that most. You know, there was a study out a few years before I wrote the book that was essentially that women in their mid-40s, those are the ones that are initiating the divorce, right? Tamsen Fadal 36:59-37:03 Yeah, like 70%. Yeah, it was a ridiculous number. Tamsen Fadal 37:04-37:27 And so that's one thing I'm like, that's not just a coincidence. Like, that just didn't just happen. There's not been a lot of You know, of research on it. There was a study out of the UK that they kind of did a survey and looked at some of that. But what I think is the part that was important to me was to say that, okay, my book that I wrote. How to menopause was, but it starts in the doctor's office, but it doesn't end in the doctor's office. Tamsen Fadal 37:27-37:34 And I'm sure, I mean, that's what you're talking about. It goes to all different aspects of our lives, right? And so we can't ignore this relationship part. Tamsen Fadal 37:34-37:37 So we've got to deal with what's happening with us physically. Tamsen Fadal 37:37-37:41 And what's going on psychologically, because that's really happening. Tamsen Fadal 37:41-37:53 And then I think we move into that relationship part. So a lot of the conversation I had on the road and even now is like, don't jump and make any of those decisions right this second. Like get this part st Stabilized a little bit. Tamsen Fadal 37:53-37:58 Like, I don't say, like, balance all your hormones first and be perfect, but get this part worked out first. Tamsen Fadal 37:59-38:09 The you has to be the most important first, and then figure that out because. There might be a reason that you don't want to have sex. Look, the person could just be a jerk, but it also could be that, like, your body just doesn't feel like it. Tamsen Fadal 38:09-38:11 You know, I got married again at 50. Tamsen Fadal 38:11-38:16 I went on my honeymoon, and I was like. You want me to have sex with you? No. You know, like, I couldn't. Tamsen Fadal 38:16-38:18 Is that what we're doing? I thought it was. Tamsen Fadal 38:19-39:00 I thought we were just in Hawaii for fun. And so, so I so I understand that Part of it, but I also say that, like, there was so much going on with me physically, I couldn't even make that decision then. You know, if I had made a decision, it would have been not the right decision for me. That's also to say, if you go back to what you were saying with Lisa Moscone and really kind of clearing out your head and what's important. What I want now, and if I had been married to the same person, I'm not sure that that shift would have been, I would have stayed with that same person. So I think it depends, but I think it's very, very important to get this other part. You know, figured out first because hormones can really wreak havoc. Tamsen Fadal 39:00-39:04 But it's not surprising to me that we see this divorce rate really Tamsen Fadal 39:04-39:09 Increasing women getting back out there and going, like, I don't even know if I want to date again. I want to just, right? I just need me for a little while. Tamsen Fadal 39:09-39:10 You know, that's that's what I'm looking for. Tamsen Fadal 39:10-39:30 I'm not even looking for somebody else to come, you know, to be near me. And we're also learning what else we like with our bodies, too. And so I think that that's where the communication part, you know, that's like sort of that in between of, hey, I never even liked that. I don't know why I thought I liked that, but this is what I like now. So I think that those are hard, those are not always easy conversations to have, but that's necessary. Dr. Mindy 39:30-39:31 That's part of losing our filter. Tamsen Fadal 39:32-39:37 We're willing to say what we want to say, right? And so if we're going to have sex, we're not putting up with bad sex. Tamsen Fadal 39:37-39:41 I need to be more descriptive As to what my needs are here. Dr. Mindy 39:41-40:29 So I do think that could be the upside of a low libido: maybe you need to talk. Differently to your spouse about what your needs are, which would be, which is a really interesting conversation. You know, there's a lot of Connection that I'm seeing right now between the menopause conversation and the relationship conversation. And, you know, we were with Julie Gottman together at Lisa Belia's house And one of the phrases she has that I really have used in my own menopausal journey is that women get Depressed when they are in relationships where they are saying yes and they really want to say no. And when you say yes and you really want to say no, it builds resentment. I am, I'm the queen. Tamsen Fadal 40:30-40:54 Me too. Me too. It's really yeah. But we were trained to do that in so many ways. Like that was societally like, you know, I work with so many younger people now, and they're like. What do you mean? Like, they can't even fathom that that's, you know, how it. But we were really kind of taught that that's the way to go along to get along, be the good girl, be the this, be that person. Right. Dr. Mindy 40:55-41:07 One of the moments I learned that we were really grew up in a misogynistic time was when I watched Fast Times at Ridgemont High with my children, and they were like, what did they just say? Dr. Mindy 41:08-41:17 Why is that? I'm like, oh, that was the 70s. That was the late 70s. You were allowed to talk to us like that. You can't talk about it. You were allowed to. Tamsen Fadal 41:17-41:38 Isn't that funny? I saw it on, I don't know why I was even watching this 9 to 5. And I'm like, oh, God. What? Because I've I watched a a documentary and the nine to five was brought up into it and I went back and I watched it and I'm like Oh my gosh, how did I think that this was funny even to watch this as a comedic show? Dr. Mindy 41:38-41:40 You know, I can't even. Tamsen Fadal 41:40-42:42 And that changes Only happened recently, Satan. So fast. I mean, we say it was like that was then, but the change has only happened recently. I mean, when I got into my career, you know, I was like. Thank you for letting me be here and get your coffee and report your news for you. You know, it was really like it was very, very different. And so I do think that that's why we're seeing this. I'm sure there's a lot of men that are like, wait, what? But, but, you know, we're seeing women in the last three years be so vocal about, you know, everything. Feet my algorithm. I don't think it's just my algorithm anymore. Talking about hormones and nutrition and fitness and Fasting and aging better, longevity, and menopause and perimenopause. And now I'm seeing men put up perimenopause videos and menopause videos. And so I'm like, okay, I guess. Yeah. I guess it's not a taboo topic so much anymore. Remember, taboo, we were calling it taboo constantly. And I'm like, if we could never call it taboo, I'd be so happy. So, I feel like we're getting there. But we still have a lot to do. There's still a lot of confusion, you know? Dr. Mindy 42:42-42:55 Exactly. And so, where do you think men, you know, fit into the conversation? I did. In Age Like a Girl, I have an appendix to men. It's actually written to men, directly to them. Tamsen Fadal 42:55-42:56 Yeah. Dr. Mindy 42:56-43:43 And I have a husband that has been willing to see my changes. try to understand my changes. We have conversations a lot about like the new you. I the other day I bought a baseball cap with a butterfly on it and I told him When I put the cap on, and I, you, that way, you know which version of me you're talking to. You're talking to the butterflied version of me. And so he's been amazing. Yeah, he's been amazing. But it but he I had to kind of pull him into I know there were things that that I was okay with before and I am no longer okay with them. And that was hard. That was a hard conversation to have. So, where do you see what you're doing? Tamsen Fadal 43:43-43:45 Yeah, because there's no roadmap for it Dr. Mindy 43:45-43:46 No, there's no roadmap for that conversation. Tamsen Fadal 43:47-44:27 I mean, there's a roadmap for a lot of other ones, not that one. I mean, I love that he's willing. I mean, my husband is too. I kind of met my husband in the middle of all of this, you know. So. He's only known me screaming the word vagina across the dining room table to somebody on the phone while we're both sitting there working. So I think men come into the conversation a couple of different ways. First of all, I love that you're, you know, that you have that conversation with your husband and can and can have that openness. And I like the symbolic part of it with the butterfly. You know, I think men have to come in in the workplace, is one place, but you know, whether they like it or not, because I think we can't ignore that in that area because we're working alongside them all the time. And I do think it's incumbent on them to learn. Tamsen Fadal 44:27-44:28 Some of this. Tamsen Fadal 44:28-44:40 I mean, this is just stuff that wasn't, you know, wasn't taught. We didn't know. So I think it's important for them to just have an understanding of it that it's not just a joke all the time, because unfortunately, that's how we all grew up. Tamsen Fadal 44:39-44:41 We grew up with a hot flash being a joke. Tamsen Fadal 44:41-45:16 We grew up with the women being the butt of most jokes. We grew up with this time in life being just the annoying woman that was Anxious and moody and hot and sweaty. And so I think that men have to come into that conversation in a lot of ways. And because Will be like this if they're left out of it. You know, I, you know, so if you put that word in, and I think it's important, we did find that when we did these screenings of the documentary, it was all women. And then after about six months, men started trickling into them. So we'd shout them out and be like, hey, for the 10 men in the room. Tamsen Fadal 45:16-45:18 And then it'd be like, hey, for the 15 men in the room. Tamsen Fadal 45:18-45:31 So I do think they're interested if they're the kind of guys that care enough. And if that's who you want to be with, isn't it? Right. Like the person that's proactively going in there saying what's going on. I don't know, fix it and then come back to me. Dr. Mindy 45:31-46:11 Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. The one message I wish I could get out to men, and I recently was interviewed on Rich Roll. And I he kind of played, he sort of played this, like, I'm a dude, what do I know? And I was like, here's what I'm going to tell you, Rich, is that And please take this with love. But you men need to step it up right now and get to understand what we're going through. I have two of my closest friends I have sat on in my she-shed on my couch at Ladies' Nights Out, and they are both divorced. And they both said, I tried. I tried. I took him to therapy. Tamsen Fadal 46:11-46:13 One husband wouldn't go to therapy. Dr. Mindy 46:13-46:33 The other husband was like, everything's fine. Why are you so upset? And I think if there are men listening to this podcast, or if there was a message I could get to men, is just try to understand what we're going through. Because you wanting to, the status quo is the status quo is no longer around. Dr. Mindy 46:33-46:36 That is not women are rising up Dr. Mindy 46:36-46:47 And we need to be heard. Menopause is being looked at differently. And that divorce rate, I think, could be changed if men were willing to To see us different, I do too. Tamsen Fadal 46:48-48:06 I do too. And acknowledge that this change is happening. And it's not just, all right, that's what you're going through, but not everybody could be going through this. Unfortunately, there's been so much silence around this that that was really, you know, along with the damage that it did to women's health, long-term health, the other damage that it did was just the acceptance. Of all this, right? The cultural acceptance of you get through that your own problem and let us know when you're You've got that sorted out. And so, I, yeah, so it is incumbent on men to do that. And I also think that it's interesting, and I've seen it. Go a couple of different ways. Like, I think I've seen it go from like, oh, the eye roll. Like, the first time I went to the Capitol, we were out in front talking about, you know. We were with the Let's Talk Menopause organization, and we were holding a press conference, the first time we'd gone there. And we had a couple of people walk by, like men, you know. And then recently I was in a TV studio, and I was talking about the book. And one of the camera guys came over to me afterwards. He goes, My wife is really suffering right now. Is there a place I can go to for more information? So I'm seeing men's step forward, but I don't think that they I don't think that any of us have the luxury any longer of saying like, oh, not you know, I now let's not talk about it, I'll figure itself out, especially men. Dr. Mindy 48:06-48:51 Yeah. So we dove my husband and I dove into Esther Perel's teachings. And one of the things that I love that she says is you will fall in love with two to three people in your adult life. And some of us that will be with different people, some of us, that will be with the same people. So just I'll throw in what has been working in my marriage is we actually looked at marriage before kids as marriage 1. 0. we looked at marriage with kids as marriage 2. 0. And now we refer to our marriage as marriage 3. 0, which is after kids and Mindy's and Mindy's postmenopausal. And it's been a beautiful way to say, hey, Can we talk about this through the lens of Marriage 3. 0? Tamsen Fadal 48:51-48:54 Yeah, that's great. And it just sort of shifted it. Dr. Mindy 48:54-49:07 It was really, it was really beautiful. So, or it has been. I mean, we're still working on it, but it. At least the door is wide open, which was really a wonderful experience to have a spouse that was willing to do that. Tamsen Fadal 49:07-49:19 Well, I have to imagine it made both of you feel safe in coming forward with any changes or thoughts or fears or acknowledgments of something that maybe worked before, but isn't going to serve me now. Dr. Mindy 49:19-49:19 Yeah. Tamsen Fadal 49:19-50:13 You know, and that's nice to feel that safe zone. In there, where you're not like, oh gosh, what's the reaction to this going to be? Versus, okay, I have a sounding board, a safe place to go with that. I was divorced in my early. 40s. And did menopause contribute perimenopause contribute to it? I don't I couldn't say. I mean, I was definitely in that stage of it now that I look back, but I don't even know. He wound up being not the right partner for me, period, inside or outside of that. But I will say that to go back to where I am today, you know, I started dating. In my later 40s, then wound up getting married a second time at 50 years old. What I expect, and what I would Tolerate right in a relationship is very different than it was before. And I think it's, and I also think I give a lot less Pressure too. Tamsen Fadal 50:13-50:15 Like, I think I'm a little like now. Tamsen Fadal 50:15-50:19 I'm like, this is my life, this is your life. Where I'm, I say, I walk the world with him. Tamsen Fadal 50:19-50:21 Like, I want, he's who I want to walk the world with Tamsen Fadal 50:21-50:32 But I don't feel like I'm looking to him for all of these answers to my life, right? But I certainly do expect both of us to understand each other during this time because we're getting older together, right? Tamsen Fadal 50:32-50:34 So we started our Tamsen Fadal 50:33-50:34 Marriage 1. Tamsen Fadal 50:34-50:37 0 at 50, meet 50, him 60. Tamsen Fadal 50:37-51:11 And so I'm seeing, I see how we Dance with each other a little bit differently, even from our my mid-forties to where we are now, to where I assume we're going to be as we get older. It's beautiful. But it's nice because he taught, you know, he's like He talks about it. He's open about it. People come up to him now and they're like, Oh, your wife talks about menopause all the time. And at the beginning, he was like, Oh, gosh, Tamson, you know, it's a lot. And now, and now he's like, Yeah, yeah, she's working on another, whatever. It's become more of his, you know, in his zeitgeist, too, not just in mine. Dr. Mindy 51:12-51:19 Right. I'm laughing because that sounds very much like a few of our conversations. Like, I'll walk around and be like, I think my estrogen's off today. Tamsen Fadal 51:19-51:21 Like, I'm sorry, I'm a little biye. Dr. Mindy 51:22-51:36 I tried adapting, you know, my creams. And, and, and some days I'm like, I start to say something, I'm like, do you not want to hear about hormones today? And he's like, yeah, I'd like a break. Thank you. I like a prick. I know. Tamsen Fadal 51:36-51:36 I know. Dr. Mindy 51:37-51:39 I totally get that. Tamsen Fadal 51:39-52:00 Every once in a while, he'll be like, I'm like, I'm changing my patch or the video. And he's like, you're putting You're putting that online, huh? And I go, Yeah, I am. And now, you know, I've got a 14-year-old nephew, I'm an 85-year-old father. So my father's like become this. He's become all of a sudden this advocate for menopause, but I'm not sure if he knows the boundaries of it all. So he goes, because I've normalized it now. Tamsen Fadal 52:01-52:02 So, you know, when I lost my mom, I lost her. Tamsen Fadal 52:03-52:58 From breast cancer, and we assume that she went into a medically induced menopause as a result of a double mastectomy and chemotherapy and everything else. And I remember her just being pouring sweat all the time, but I, but we were young, and we would like. All laugh about it together and didn't know why she was so hot. And never menopause was never brought up, and I was young then. And so when I started going into researching all of this and then talking about it more openly, my father said to me, Do you think that your mom was in menopause? Like, I think she might have been in menopause. And I said, Yeah, I'm pretty sure, Dad, that she was. I mean, this is years ago. She died in 1990. So, fast forward to today, you know, I published the book. I sent my dad a couple of copies. He's in a super agers group, like a super agers. Group in the morning as they meet. It's so cute. And so I said, Hey, do you want to bring some of books to your superager? So I'll send you some more. And he goes, Oh, that Look, those women aren't menopause. Tamsen Fadal 52:58-53:00 I'm like, but their daughters probably are. Tamsen Fadal 53:00-53:12 So, if you want to do that, how am I going to bring this up, Tamson? I'm not going to bring so. Long story short, I guess some of the conversation happened. And so now the women are coming to him like, can we get a copy of the book for our daughter? Tamsen Fadal 53:12-53:16 So my dad thinks he is like the coolest Tamsen Fadal 53:15-53:31 He's like my menopause distributor in his superagers group. And then he recently was in physical therapy, and the woman's like, Oh, I'm so hot. And he goes. Do you think it's the menopause? And I go, Dad, now you got, you can't, you can't do that to a woman. Dr. Mindy 53:31-53:42 You can bring it up subtly, but you can't ask. She's a matter of fact. You know, that's a whole nother generation that needs to be taught how to talk to women. So I applaud you. Speaker 6 53:42-53:44 That's freaking like, oh no. Dr. Mindy 53:44-53:45 Yeah. Speaker 6 53:45-53:47 So it's but it's interesting to see, you know, it's interesting to see. Dr. Mindy 53:48-53:59 I just I love that everybody's coming into the conversation. It's just really beautiful. What do you th what advice would you give a woman about talking about menopause in the workplace? Tamsen Fadal 53:59-54:01 What are we seeing in trends? Dr. Mindy 54:01-54:17 I know I'll give you an example. I was in London over a year ago doing some interviews and promoting Eat Like a Girl and I was asked to go into Amazon And speak to a group of women. It was a menopause group. Tamsen Fadal 54:17-54:20 And I was like, of course, I'll come speak to you all. Dr. Mindy 54:20-54:35 So I go into Amazon London and I'm talking to hundreds of women. And the leader of the group tells me, That what she decided to do was she saw the trends of when women leave the workplace. Tamsen Fadal 54:35-54:41 And it's usually around 45, somewhere between 45 and 50, they leave. Dr. Mindy 54:41-55:28 And then she figured out what that was costing the company. And so she went to the C-suite and she was like, we need to be doing something different here. And they said, well, we'll let you have a club. And she her thing was, if I can show them the cost of losing a menopausal woman, maybe they will help us through this process a little different. And then, on the flip side of that, in the research I've done of Lisa Moscone's work and even some of the grandmother hypothesis, we actually. Our brains have the ability to get stronger, to be more focused, to bring more to the workplace. So, what do we need to do to change that conversation? Tamsen Fadal 55:28-56:20 Yeah, I think it's one of my favorite conversations in all this as we keep going forward, because I think it's kind of that next frontier that we're going to tackle that is not necessarily Is really been touched because we all come from different workplaces, right? One person might be working in a classroom, one's working in a C-suite, one's working, you know, doing, you know, driving. And so I, so we have all different workplaces. So it's difficult to say, like, we're going to implement a workplace policy. You know, everybody should be doing this. But there's enough of these little nuggets to take away from what we could do, whether it's changing uniforms. If you've got somebody that's working in a factory or a distribution center, or it's Being able to have a conversation like that, or it's being able to provide a coaching or telehealth services via insurance, right? Or making people at least feel comfortable about the conversation. So, those kinds of accommodations What we don't want is it to ever work against women so that it's penalized or that it's working against them. Tamsen Fadal 56:20-56:21 Yeah. Tamsen Fadal 56:21-56:28 Where we say, oh, gosh, okay, we're not going to hire this person because of that. But I think that we're able to show financially that retaining this. Tamsen Fadal 56:28-56:33 Level of woman, this age of woman, this experience of woman is helpful for the organization. Tamsen Fadal 56:34-56:36 So I don't think businesses can afford to ignore this now. Tamsen Fadal 56:36-56:37 I think that that's pretty clear. Tamsen Fadal 56:37-57:55 I did an article for Harvard. Business review a few years ago, and we had a hard time finding companies that had been implementing policy, which was very interesting. When we did the documentary, we worked with Genentech. Who realized that they had a need for this, and so they implemented workplace policy. And so that's encouraging to see with some of the larger ones. I came from a media company that, and I brought this in like three or four years ago, and they said to me, you can have a group. If that's what you want, but we're not going to do anything on paper like that. And so that was a real disappointment. You know, I worked, I was like, they said, what is a menopause policy? And I said, ah. Women need help. So, I do like seeing it in the workplace. I think if I was talking to somebody and said, How do you want to implement that? However, you can. And if that means it's two to three women that are meeting about it, or it's something where you have a big enough company where you can say, I'm going to go into the HR department and say, we need Something where, even if it's access to coaching, even if it's access to bringing somebody like you or me into a workplace to have a conversation about it, because I don't think it's always easy for a workplace to say, Okay, everybody, that's menopausal You want to understand menopause, come in here and do it. I think it's easier for a third party to come in and say, hey, if anybody wants to have this discussion, we're here and open to that discussion. And I think that's the easiest thing a workplace could do, honestly, for themselves and for the women that they're trying to help. Dr. Mindy 57:56-58:11 Yeah, and what if you're a woman in a workplace that doesn't understand you? Are there advocacy groups right now? Yeah, what are they? Oh, having different advocacy groups? Yeah, like do we have like a general like we need like a advocacy? I feel like I saw we have guidelines. We have guidelines for it. Tamsen Fadal 58:12-58:13 Did you see a group? Group itself for working with the camera. Dr. Mindy 58:14-58:24 Yeah, there's some yeah, there were and I forget the name, but I started to s follow them on Instagram that they are actually helping like a company could hire them. Tamsen Fadal 58:24-58:32 Oh, yes, they have put a policy in. I don't know if they're an advocacy group for women themselves. Dr. Mindy 58:32-58:37 But what we hear a lot is that women just feel gun-shy to say anything. Tamsen Fadal 58:37-58:40 They still don't want to. Dr. Mindy 58:40-58:48 So, how do you know when you should say something and when you shouldn't, and when you're being mistreated Like, we don't have a solid advocacy group like that, do we? Tamsen Fadal 58:48-59:12 We do not. Menopause Society has put some guidelines together that could be helpful to To have four HR directors and resources that are in place. We have some on the website, the M Factor, which is like these are for employees and these are for employers to understand your rights And I think there's a company called Adove that is able to do that, is able to go into an actual workplace and implement policy Dr. Mindy 59:11-59:14 Yeah. So you just have to do a little bit of homework on it. Tamsen Fadal 59:14-59:31 Yeah, you've got to do homework on it and also decide if what you can do inside or outside of there. But I do think that HR is becoming more aware of it. And there's even some state-by-state lawmakers that are talking about this, and they make sure that women are not penalized Tamsen Fadal 59:31-59:35 You know, if they are dealing with menopause or they're menopausal. So I think that that's promising too. Tamsen Fadal 59:35-59:57 I just don't rely on that for every state or for every business because I think that makes it hard. So again. You know, I can't. It's funny. I found myself when I was doing all the interviews for the book going, Well, the onus is on the women. So, unfortunately, it's on us. Unfortunately, it's not, and you know, and but it really is right now. But if that's what it's going to take, we'll, we're up for the task as usual. Dr. Mindy 59:57-59:59 You know, I had right as usual. Tamsen Fadal 59:59-01:00:00 As usual. Dr. Mindy 01:00:00-01:00:02 Let's point that out. Yeah. Tamsen Fadal 01:00:02-01:00:05 So I had a strategy when my kids were little. Dr. Mindy 01:00:06-01:00:46 I decided to create a team of doctors. That I would go and ask opinions of, knowing that as a mother, a lot of times you're skewed. You know, you can't quite. Doctor your own child. So it was everything from really alternative to super conservative. And what I did is every any time my children were sick, I would pull this team. And then I would sit back and I would listen and I would decide what felt the most the best to me. And I think there needs to be some that that might be the moment we're at. is if you're in a sticky situation in work, you need to sort of look at what your options are and then figure out what fails right because you're right. Again, the onus is Really up to us. Tamsen Fadal 01:00:46-01:01:04 So, and it's a workplace, every workplace is so different, too. And I think that's what you have to take into consideration: you know, what might feel comfortable to one woman walking in and bulldozing into the HR office and saying, like, this is what we need. It's not going to feel comfortable to somebody else that might be at an age where they go, Oh, I'm so grateful that I'm still here, you know. Tamsen Fadal 01:01:04-01:01:06 Because I did go through that myself in the workplace. Tamsen Fadal 01:01:06-01:01:21 Like, I was, I was very like, Oh, you know, I was in television, and that's a very youth. You know, forward-facing youth industry, I'd be like, oh, thank you, yay, my key card still works, you know. So I understand that mindset of feeling appreciative. Tamsen Fadal 01:01:23-01:01:24 Okay, well, every day. Tamsen Fadal 01:01:25-01:01:34 So, yeah, I understand it. I do understand that that's not, it's not quite as easy as everybody feels that same level of boldness, depending on the situation Dr. Mindy 01:01:34-01:02:18 Recently, there was something that came out a couple of months ago that really excited me. And it was a conversation with Sophia Bush and Michelle Obama on Sophia's podcast. What excited me was not what came from that, because really what the Zeitgeist did when Michelle started to beat to her own drum. is they started to assume she was leaving Barack. And basically she didn't show up at Jimmy Carter's Memorial. She didn't show up at a couple of inaugural things. And so everybody assumed she was leaving Barack. And she went on the podcast and said, I'm finally doing life for me. And we are seeing, it was so great. Tamsen Fadal 01:02:18-01:02:26 I was like, I was like clapping from my living room at 10 o'clock at night when I saw it come out in the New York Times. Dr. Mindy 01:02:26-01:02:54 Yeah. When you were out doing book tours, all the experts you were talking about, how much of menopause do you think is a transformational moment where we finally start to do life? the way we want to do it. We start listening to ourselves and not pulling everybody around us. I think she's just a small little piece of a microcosm of women that are finally saying enough. Tamsen Fadal 01:02:54-01:03:02 What are your thoughts? I love that you use the word polling everyone around you. My brother used to say, like, Tamson likes to take a poll before she makes a decision. And I did forever. Tamsen Fadal 01:03:02-01:03:03 I've done that. What do you think? Tamsen Fadal 01:03:03-01:03:28 A lot of women. Hey. Hey, hey, and yeah, but I didn't even realize it at the time. I just knew that, like, I wanted everyone to be happy and be happy with my decision. And I actually didn't even have the Confidence in myself to do that. And now I'm like, no, that's not what we're doing. And I always thought, man, I can't wait to be like her. You know, I'd see an older woman, I'd be like, she's so. Brave and hopefully one day I'll be brave. Tamsen Fadal 01:03:28-01:03:29 I didn't understand where it came from. Tamsen Fadal 01:03:30-01:03:52 And I, all I too was like, oh, yes, if Michelle Obama is doing that, then I'm going to do it my way too. And so I think that those kind of conversations and hearing that admission, and I loved it myself for the same reasons. Gives us permission slips to do those kind of things. And I think that this is a time in our lives where we just get them. Tamsen Fadal 01:03:52-01:03:55 You know, I mean, I think that we've got to give them to ourselves. Tamsen Fadal 01:03:55-01:04:23 I don't know how quickly it happens because I do still think that what happens Early on during this period of time is all consuming, right? You're not feeling right, you're not sleeping, you feel like you're gaining weight, you're anxious, you have rage. You're dealing with a relationship at the same time, and then all the other things that we know happen in this, especially sandwich generation. And so, you know, I get excited when women kind of get to the other side and start feeling a little little bit better and even better than before. Tamsen Fadal 01:04:23-01:04:24 And I really do believe that. Tamsen Fadal 01:04:24-01:04:32 Like I do believe that you feel even better than before. Agreed. Because you've got that grounding of who you are. And then you have permission to do that. Tamsen Fadal 01:04:33-01:04:39 I don't know that you would have done that at at forty years old. I don't know that she would have done that at 43 years old by her own admission, you know. Tamsen Fadal 01:04:39-01:04:43 But I do think now it's like, if I'm not, if I'm not doing it now, when the heck am I doing it? Tamsen Fadal 01:04:44-01:04:47 And so I do, I do feel like we're done waiting for someday. Tamsen Fadal 01:04:47-01:04:47 Yeah. Dr. Mindy 01:04:47-01:04:55 And if when I where my brain goes crazy is when I think about like 1. 2 billion women by 2030 are going to be a menopause Tamsen Fadal 01:04:58-01:05:01 We could take over the world, women. Dr. Mindy 01:05:02-01:05:26 Like, if we understood how powerful we are, and this was such a big part of Age Like a Girl, was like. How, like, if you understood that your brain reorganized itself so that you were supposed to, you're living 42. 5% of your life to stand in a leadership position. That we could change the world. That's what I'm trying to get out there. Tamsen Fadal 01:05:26-01:05:53 I am convinced of it. And I know you will and are, because you're right. I mean, 1. 2 billion. Can you, I mean, imagine this, and I also think what's interesting about this whole period of time is that it's not just the U. S. , like, we're talking about women all over the world. World that are part of this now. This conversation has really, like, when I go on social media for any given day, there are women all over the world having a very similar conversation with me. Tamsen Fadal 01:05:53-01:05:55 And I think that part's super fascinating. Tamsen Fadal 01:05:55-01:06:06 Like, I think it's fascinating it doesn't have these boundaries right now, you know, that we're seeing it all over the place. And we're all speaking the same language about this at this part of our lives. Dr. Mindy 01:06:06-01:06:34 Right. Which leads me on this final thought, which is, can we talk about Melanie Sanders? Holy sh that is like, to me, that woman. I mean, from a journalist angle, like, I wa she stood up one day because she had had enough. I know. I know. She said it. And everybody, everybody was like, I don't care either. I don't care. Tamsen Fadal 01:06:34-01:06:34 Yeah. Dr. Mindy 01:06:34-01:06:38 What do you? Has anybody checked in to see how she's doing? Tamsen Fadal 01:06:39-01:06:47 Fascinating. I emailed back and forth with her just a little bit. And, you know, because she had done a video with my book. Tamsen Fadal 01:06:47-01:06:49 And I was like, oh my gosh, that was so kind. Tamsen Fadal 01:06:49-01:07:41 But I. Look, I think that she voiced what all of us have been feeling, and maybe just didn't know how, or just weren't brave enough to do it. But whatever it was. It was, it really struck a nerve. And you can't, I mean, it's just been phenomenal. And how it How it took root. And, like, you know, Christian Shinowith just did one. And it was just, I really smile. And so anytime one of her video pops up, I'm Like heart, heart, heart, heart, like love you. Because I do think that it's pretty special and it's a It's really, really the theme where we are and what we're talking about right now. It's everything we're talking about with the female brain. It's everything we're talking about about this transition and getting rid of some of the dusty stuff and kind of renovating our heads and in our lives. Dr. Mindy 01:07:41-01:07:49 Yeah. I hope so I keep saying I hope somebody's helping her navigate this career moment, which she found herself in because I don't think she signed up for this. Tamsen Fadal 01:07:50-01:07:52 No, no, but it's an exciting time, that's for sure. Dr. Mindy 01:07:53-01:08:16 Yeah. Where do you think the conversation's going? Like, I have watched it go from nothing to chaos. to a little more into empowerment and transformation. We all need to be talking about like, where do you think the conversation's going and will it eventually settle in? Where this is just a normal process that everybody understands. What's your vision on that? Tamsen Fadal 01:08:16-01:08:36 That's where we're winning when that happens When it goes into that normal process where it's not this like thing, right? That's where we know that we've kind of hit our sweet spot, I think. And then, and that's where we know also. I believe that real change is being made, right? Because it becomes something that we're not having to point out. Tamsen Fadal 01:08:37-01:08:41 It's part of our lives. Everybody is real clear of what it is. Tamsen Fadal 01:08:41-01:08:52 So we're not, you know, the learning curve is j you know, we don't talk about a learning curve of pregnancy anymore, a learning curve of periods, or a learning curve of Of so many different things. I do think it's going into the longevity conversation. Tamsen Fadal 01:08:53-01:08:53 There's no question. Tamsen Fadal 01:08:53-01:09:23 And not to like overuse that term, but like, but maybe from a woman's point of view. Not just from you know, not just from guys. And and then I also think it's I also think it's like coming into our own. I always said like These aren't our golden years, they're our bolden years. And I do think that there is something about that that happens for women because we really haven't had that opportunity yet. You know, we've made very swift changes. I went back and I was watch I watched the Gloria Steinem documentary. Tamsen Fadal 01:09:23-01:09:28 And it wasn't that long ago that we were like, hey, we're here. Tamsen Fadal 01:09:28-01:10:12 And we're not just in, you know, and so to see where we are, where we've gone since then, I think that we still, we still have a lot of work to do. And so I think that that's going to be that next part of the conversation is to owning that. Understanding what empowerment really means, not asking for permission, you know, not being like, oh, well, you know, there's two women in charge now. Oh, great. You know, but there's 51% of us So, I'm hoping that we settle first into that, and then we move into that next thing of seeing what women are even more capable of. Getting the help that they need, getting a sleep that they deserve to get, feeling like their bodies are functioning at full capacity because we've got another How many decades? Three to four decades. Dr. Mindy 01:10:12-01:10:46 We got some time. We got a lot of time. I wasn't tired for it. Yeah, and some things to do. We have some things to do. One of my favorite comments that my literary agent made to me that I just. Adore her. She's like, she's like, I'm going to stick around so I can see what's going to happen to the world right now because, you know, there's a lot of belie That the misogyny is actually in an extinction bubble, that it's rearing its ugly head before it goes away. And when we look at the 1. 2 billion women going into menopause, it's like, hey. This is getting exciting now. Dr. Mindy 01:10:46-01:10:49 We don't know where we're going, but I have a feeling it's going to be really good. Tamsen Fadal 01:10:50-01:11:02 Yeah, I do too. I do too. And I'm excited for it. And I'm, I'm. Proud to be standing, you know, with women like you leading this charge and the conversation with the knowledge and education that we need. Tamsen Fadal 01:11:02-01:11:04 And we need it, like, we can't. Tamsen Fadal 01:11:06-01:11:18 I hope I never see that part slow down because I think that we're learning a lot. And luckily, like now we're mandated to be in research studies. And we've got some incredible women at the forefront doing that research. And that's exciting to me. Dr. Mindy 01:11:19-01:11:32 Amazing. Well, Tamsen, I love this. Thank you. I do. I'm coming to the shed next. Yes. Yes. You need to come to the she shed and sit on my couch with me next to my womb, Crystal. Tamsen Fadal 01:11:33-01:11:37 I would love that. In your pajamas, and have a great conversation. Dr. Mindy 01:11:38-01:12:02 So, but I really appreciate what you putting your Hat in the ring, the menopausal ring, and bringing the journalist perspective and all the interviews you've done. And when your book came out, by the way, I was like, that is a brilliant title And I love titles and I love phrases because they stick. But yeah, we need to know how to menopause. How do we do this? Tamsen Fadal 01:12:02-01:12:04 And it is so dense with information. Dr. Mindy 01:12:04-01:12:12 So, you know, where do people find it? Or let me ask it this way: where's your preferred place that people get it Tamsen Fadal 01:12:12-01:12:26 Gosh, anywhere, howtomenopause. com. And of course, wherever you buy books. Like, you know, if you're doing, if you're Amazon, it's on Amazon, it's on sale there right now. But any of your local bookstores, that's why we did the tour all around to hit the local bookstores because that's always important to me. Great. Dr. Mindy 01:12:26-01:12:29 Thank you. Thank you. So thank you, Tamza. Tamsen Fadal 01:12:29-01:12:29 Appreciate it. It's so fun. Dr. Mindy 01:12:30-01:12:33 I know. Agreed. Agreed. Both will do it in me work. Dr. Mindy 01:12:34-01:12:35 I'm your girl. Dr. Mindy 01:12:35-01:12:56 Yeah Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it. Please leave us a review, share it with your friends, and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.