Stop Doing Too Much & Reclaim Your Peace – with Terri Cole

Dr. Mindy  

On this episode of The resetter podcast, I bring you Terri Cole, and we are gonna dive in and talk about a new concept she’s bringing to the world called high functioning codependency. And I think a lot of you are going to really resonate with this conversation. I think a lot of us, including myself, are high functioning, codependent people and and what we’re you’re going to hear in this conversation is, what is it and how do we overcome it? So I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t take you down a path without a solution here. So first, if you don’t know Terry, I just want to introduce you to her, because she’s an amazing woman. She is a licensed psychotherapist, a global relationship and empowerment expert, and yes, she is and she’s the author of boundary boss, and now her new book called too much. So what you’re going to hear in this conversation is really where we get stuck with our happiness like I kid you not. This really blew me away, because I’m also, as you’ll hear in this conversation, I’m also coming to a new awareness about myself that I tie my happiness to the happiness of the people closest to me, and actually, in trying to make everybody happy around me, I am actually creating suffering for myself. And what you will learn in this conversation is that many of us do this, and it’s so sneaky, like this is why I wanted to bring Terri on, because some of you are going to have some ahas as she goes through examples of where we hijack our own happiness because we’re so involved in fixing and helping everybody else around us. So you’re about to hear what high functioning codependency is. You’re going to hear the signs and symptoms of it so that you can recognize, or maybe not recognize yourself in it. We talk about how culturally, as women, we definitely fall into this trap, and why that happens, and what most importantly I would say is what we can do to get our peace back. How do we stop betraying ourselves? How do we find our own authentic voice? How do we live a life where we are in control of our own peace? It’s such a good conversation. So if you are a high functioning codependent like me, you are about to get a master class in grabbing your happiness and peace back and making sure that you are living a life that is authentic to you. So Terri Cole, enjoy Welcome to the resetter podcast. This podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself again, if you have a passion for learning, if you’re looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you?

Dr. Mindy  

Okay? Well, first, Terri, I just have to welcome you to the resetter podcast. I I feel like the conversation we’re about to have may become very personal, so I just want to say welcome. And I have a whole lot of questions,

Terri Cole  

every interviewer, every interview, honestly, Mindy, this is what I’m really seeing. And they’re like, Okay, let’s just talk about me, like, in reference to this,

Dr. Mindy  

yeah, you know, I have to start with for starters, I love the title of your book, and I have some questions on it, because, I mean, there’s so many ways you go with too much. But I want to start by just laying this foundation of, why do we need a new version of codependency? Like, why do we need what is functional codependency? And how do I know if I am

Terri Cole  

indeed so high functioning codependency. The reason I even coined the phrase was because my clients did not see themselves in the traditional melody. Beatty codependent. No more. You got to be enabling an alcoholic type definition of codependency. So when I would say to my very capable and high functioning and successful clients. Hey, what you’re describing this is, this is a codependent behavioral pattern. They would literally be like, yeah, no way. Like, definitely not me. They’re like, everyone comes to me. I’m not dependent on squat. Everyone’s dependent on me. I’m managing all the people and all the things. I’m making all the dough, right? So what I’ve realized, and this is years ago, is that, oh, my clients literally don’t know what codependency is. They think if you’re not involved with an alcoholic and enabling that behavior, you’re not codependent. And so the problem with that is, I couldn’t help them heal if they didn’t see themselves in the problem, right? So as soon as I named it, because it was also my own flavor of codependency, if I’m being honest, right? I you know, you teach what you most need to learn. So, yeah, you know, we do. So I actually, when I added high functioning to it, because it’s also what I saw. It was the truth of what I saw. All of them were like, I’m the problem. It’s me with no shame saying you’re right. That is me. I am doing all the things for all the people and moving into so what does it actually mean to be high functioning codependent? So we’ll look at codependency minded my definition is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the relationships, the decisions, the financial situations of the people in your life, to the detriment of your internal peace. So we got to be specific, because we’re all lovers and mothers and sisters and daughters and citizens and caring people. So of course, we want our people to be happy and get what they want in life and be satisfied. Obviously, I’m not talking about that. That’s normal caring. That’s normal concern. When you’re a high functioning codependent, you are overly invested, meaning someone else’s problems. You make them your own. You feel this over responsibility to fix, to help, to support, to offer advice, and it’s exhausting, and all the same problems and then some that you have from being in codependent relationships, which is what burnout, you know, autoimmune disorders, resentment, like Dude, it makes you so mad at others if you feel like you’re over functioning, and then you have other people who are under functioning. And the irony with high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like. Codependency, but it is still, oh

Dr. Mindy  

my god. So I have so many thoughts on this because one of my new favorite podcasts is Julia Louis Dreyfus is wiser than me, and she was talking to one of her guests, and she was saying that I wish my sons would just listen to me, because I have such good advice, and I know exactly the direction that their that their lives should go. And when I heard that, I was like, okay, that’s how I feel about my children. So how, when I hear you talk about it through that lens. Of course, I start scanning all the people in my life that I’m like, Who would I? Who would I be really concerned about making sure that they’re happy? It is my children and it is my husband. It is the closest people to me, especially with the children. Idea like my kids are young adults now. They’re 24 and 22 and I’m learning how to let go, but I still have when they’re unhappy, there’s this desire to rush in and help them. Is that high functioning codependency? If

Terri Cole  

you do rush in and help them? Yes, it is because your desire to do it will always be there, right? We can only be in recovery from high functioning codependency. We’re never being cured. It’s just like any other addiction, any other compulsive behavior, right? So we’re not getting cured, and that’s okay. We don’t need to be cured, but you can be in recovery. So what does that look like? So let’s talk about some of the behaviors of high functioning codependency, and this will a lot of this will relate to adult children. Auto advice giving, where we just can’t stop. We just can’t stop.

Dr. Mindy  

Oh, it’s so telling them, but yeah, that’s a hard one.

Terri Cole  

That’s such a good idea for you. And, oh, I know what you should yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

I can tell they fix their lives,

Terri Cole  

yes? And what is the cost for doing that you are robbing them of their autonomy, not purposely, but that that is the result your intention doesn’t mitigate the impact that the behaviors have. You make children feel like you’re the only person who has the answers. You don’t trust their ability to figure it out. You do. You take their power. But let’s, in that one particular instance, let’s look at what we could do instead. So instead of auto advice giving, we can learn to ask expansive questions, even if they’re coming to you for advice. Before you say a word, you need to say, Okay, before I before I give you my two cents, which I will do if you’re asking me for it. What do you think you should do? That is good. Your gut instinct is good. You’re the person in this situation, and truthfully, even me as your mother. Nobody knows more accurately than you what you should do. Wow.

Dr. Mindy  

What a gift. What a gift to a child, you know. And this is interesting, because I know a lot of our audience are, you know, they’re empty nesters, and they’re learning to navigate this. And I the other day, was having a conversation with two of my closest friends, and they were talking about how their adult children tend to call them a lot to ask them for questions. And I said, God, my kids don’t call me that much. And one of them reflected back to me, and they’re like, that’s because you did your job. And I’m like, wait, wait, wait, I can’t and these two women are phenomenal mothers, like, like, I have them on mother pedestals, you know, and but it I only say this to say that it was really interesting to me that with motherhood, specifically, it’s one of those jobs that if you did it right at this phase, it is incredibly painful. Like, no job do you like, do so well, or you do and it succeeds, and then you’re, like, cut off from that experience, right?

Terri Cole  

But, but look at the extreme language. You’re actually not cut off from that experience. You get to be in the front row of what your adult child. You get to cheer them on. You get to say, Hey, I’m in the foxhole with you when you’re struggling, but I trust in your ability to figure this out, and that requires us to tolerate our discomfort. The reason we auto advice give is because you not knowing or me thinking that you might make the wrong choice. This is not just with adult children. This is with girlfriends or sisters or parents or whomever. Right makes me so uncomfortable that the way that I’m going to bind my anxiety is through instruction, is through ideas, is through I have someone I can connect you with. And here’s a book that I underlined for you, and I already made the calls and I texted my friend, and I’m swooping in to to basically be the hero. But I learned this. I’ll tell you a story from the from the book. I learned this the hard way in my life, because I didn’t know I thought that this was love. I thought that me saving all the people. That’s that me trying to be of service to everybody, even if I didn’t know you. I thought that was the way to be in the world. And one of my sisters was in a bad situation with a guy who was abusive, and she was actively alcoholic at the time, and he was doing crack, and they lived in a house in the woods without running water and no electricity. Okay, you don’t need to embellish that story, because it’s already just a domestic nightmare. So I was talking to my therapist, and I was bawling my eyes out just all the time about it, like I couldn’t it. For me, it was endlessly a five alarm fire of like, I have to get her out of there. I have to do something. And finally, my therapist, Bev, said, Terry, let me ask you something. Because I went in and I was crying, and I was like, What am I going to do? I’ve done everything. And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime? That’s good. And I was like, Wow. I and I said, Well, can we agree that she doesn’t need to learn it with a crackhead in the woods without running water? And she said, No, because I’m not God Tara, I don’t know how she needs to learn it, but what would you know? What’s happening with you? And I said, No, can you obviously clue me in? Because I don’t know. And she said, you’ve worked really hard to have a harmonious life, and your sister’s life being a dumpster fire is really messing with that piece. And you want to go back to being peaceful. You want your pain to end. You want to fix her so your pain will end. And anyway, she helped me learn that I needed to set boundaries, and I did. And I said to my sister, I can’t listen to you talk about this abusive guy. I love you, you know. But and if you ever want to get out, I’m still your person. And like, nine months later, she called and said, Are you still my person? And I said, Yeah, I’m getting in my car. She got out, she got sober. And instead of it being Terry being the hero of Jenna’s story, she got to be the hero of her own story,

Dr. Mindy  

of her own.

Terri Cole  

And it’s what we rob people of. You know, I.

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah, so, okay, so I just want to reiterate something, because you’re blowing my mind right now, and this is something I just recently, like weeks ago, got a hold of, is that everybody is on their own soul’s journey. I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna call it that, because I am starting to see that people are here to learn different lessons, and perhaps I’m here to learn so you have to go to a place that you understand. Potentially, everybody’s on their own path, like that belief. I don’t think everybody understands that. It has to start with that. And then the second part is, if I think about that with my kids, if I think about that with my friends, if I think about that with my husband, the hardest part for me is to watch them not know that, like they’re in their own suffering. And I’m over here saying, well, your soul has got a journey that it’s on. It’s not the journey that I’m on. My soul’s on a different journey, and then sort of to pull my energy away and to allow their suffering to continue. Whoo Terry, like that is so hard to do. It’s almost like a car crash that I have to look away from because I just watch all the ways they keep perpetuating their suffering. Where can I put my mind so that I can create peace, even in the understanding that I’m I’m just gonna back away, like with your sister as a beautiful example, like, where did you have to put your mind as you watched her stumble through that that year process,

Terri Cole  

the therapy, my therapist, Bev, helped me see how presumptuous it was for me to think that I knew and that How presumptuous it was for me to sort of kind of kick her out of the driver’s seat of her own life, even if I felt like she was Driving badly, right? And I’m not talking about if someone is, you know, if someone’s gonna die, like I’m not talking about not doing an intervention. But that’s not what we’re talking about Mindy most of the time, right? What we’re talking about most of the time is the day to day ways that we don’t want people to falter, that we don’t want our best friend to marry the jerk that we don’t want our adult child to get fired from the job, even though they didn’t go to work and they want you so you lie about their sickness or whatever it is, like art, your heart can be in the right place, but it’s not your job. And really, we get in the way of people’s evolution when we kick them out of the driver’s seat and we jump into the driver’s seat of their life, and we have to be humbled by or honest with ourselves, with what is motivating us, it is our own discomfort when you learn to ask expensive questions, what You’re saying is a I want to know you, right? We don’t know the people in our when we’re endlessly managing the shit out of the people in our lives. We’re not letting ourselves get to know them. We are too busy controlling them. Because this is an aspect of codependency anywhere any variety that it is a covert or overt bid to control the outcomes of others, to

Dr. Mindy  

make yourself feel better, to make yourself feel happy. Ooh,

Terri Cole  

paint. Paint that. That’s insane, that’s painful, right?

Dr. Mindy  

So it’s so much painful because then you’re like, over here, you control one, you control the other and you’re like, Okay, everybody’s good right now. And then the next thing you know, one of them goes off. And then it’s so seductive, so because, but I, what I’ve recently come to realize is that you’re only doing it so that I can, I can be happy. So it’s actually not coming from the right intention. I need them to be happy so I can be happy. And that is, that is like a dog chasing its tail. Talk a little bit about outside of auto suggestion, which is a really good term, because I’m like, oh, that’s me. I’m gonna have to think about where I offer up advice. What other signs and symptoms do we know when that we are a high functioning codependent

Terri Cole 

Okay, so these are things that you may do. So could be communication challenges, because you’re an expert at knowing other people like we have a whole stadium of data in our minds about other people’s their likes, their dislikes, the players in their life, their friends, their we know it, but we don’t necessarily have that or know that about ourselves, or we don’t expect others to right, especially if you’re conflict right, avoidant, we’d rather just do it ourselves, like for HFCs, mantra is, like, it’s just easier if I do it myself. We may Yes, right? And other people don’t do it. Yeah, that’s it. Check one,

Dr. Mindy  

yes.

Terri Cole  

We may be approval seeking, right? We may prioritize other people’s needs above our own, because we’re always going to get it done like, nobody’s checking on you Mindy, you know why? Because you’re fine. Nobody’s checking on me because they’re like, Terry’s always fine, right? Of course, that, yeah, that is the HFC to a degree. It’s a curse, because we’re not always fine, but we make ourselves be fine, and it would be nice to be able to allow this is what’s on the other side of recovery, of course, is allowing others to add value. We another sign and symptom is auto fixing. So that’s like auto advice giving. And sometimes we just do things like we don’t even realize how we may and this leads us into the next one symptom of having disordered boundaries that in boundary loss. I talked to my first book, I talked a lot about, you know, sort of the poorest boundaries that women, in particular, from a stereotypical point of view, may have, especially if you’re a people pleaser or you’re seeking validation outside of yourself. But with HFCs, we can be boundary tramplers and not realize it, right? We can be like, I transferred some money into your account because you said you were getting low and whatever, like, that is a boundary. That’s a financial boundary violation, believe it or not, because what is the message? You can’t do it, but I can. I don’t believe in you. I don’t think you’re gonna figure it out. I think you’re gonna get evicted, which I can’t tolerate, so I’m going to fix it, and then I can sleep tonight.

Dr. Mindy  

Yes, yes. I think that’s the flip. Is like, I think what I and I literally, it’s almost like I’ve been working a lot on I’ve been working a lot on myself for the last couple years, but over the summer, I really slowed things down so that I could hear my own voice, I could try to just kind of recover from this workaholic life I’ve been living for the last two decades. And I really had some ahas about myself, and the biggest aha I had was Wow. Like, I really need everybody around me to be happy so that I can be happy. And then, then, when I realized that, I started looking at like, Okay, if I if. Now this is one’s really interesting, and I’m curious your opinion on if I’m not fixing, if I’m auto fixing, I love the auto fixing, because it’s like, you don’t you’re just doing it. If I’m not fixing, if I’m not in their business all the time, if I’m not trying to control or I also do, like, hey, the situation’s bad, just give it to me. I can make it happen. Then who am I? Who is my identity, and I literally got to this place because I’m 54, years old, and I’m like my parent. My identity as a parent has changed. My identity as a doctor has changed because I’m not in clinical practice anymore. My identity as an author is changing as I’m writing new things. As a wife, all these identities that I’ve finally curated are changing, and I was left with, who am I? And that was a dark place to be.

Terri Cole  

It is and actually with HFCs, honestly, man, it’s really common because we are so relationally based that we know ourselves, yeah, being mirrored back to us, being mirrored back to us from others, right? So that’s how we know who we are, right? You tell me who I am, I’m a good wife. You tell me who I am, I’m a good mother. I’m present for you. I’m a devoted friend. I’m a whatever. I’m a devoted worker, outer I’m a all the things, but it’s relationally and behaviorally. And I think that especially perimenopause and menopause, I see a lot in my therapy practice where women just hit a wall of I can’t do this anymore. And you are obviously so. Not Alone in the workaholism, yeah, in the getting it all done, being all the things for all the people, taking the burdens off others. You know, another symptom is we’ll sort of minimize our own suffering, our own problems, our own needs. We minimize those, yeah, and we jack up the self sacrificing, right? Where the end there’s a decent amount of self abandonment that we don’t realize, because our main goal is to make sure everyone around us is okay. Our main goal as like, that is my goal, but that’s not your that’s not your dharma, right? That’s not your soul’s journey and the hyper helping aspect where, you know, we go into fields like becoming a therapist, becoming an MD, we go into fields of becoming a, you know, a triage nurse, or whatever, like anywhere, where. Are the natural born helper. It’s sort of we get to really shine. So nn, from a psychotherapeutic point of view, it’s very adaptive, right? So we take this desire to control all things, and we go into areas professionally where we can actually really add value to people’s lives, as you are doing for millions of people, and as I’m doing as well. But the over functioning piece, right? Is the part that when you when you hit a lot of times again, I say menopause, because I’ve seen it over and over, like we are compelled to go above and beyond for people most of the time, right, both for what they ask for and for what they don’t. And it can manifest anywhere. This is at home, at work, personal, professional relationships, like even with someone you’ve just met, right? Like, I literally start the book off with a story of when I was 22 coming back from therapy on Long Island to Manhattan, which is where I was living, and I saw this kid, and immediately my helper, my helper radar, pinged, like, it’s 1030 at night. What is this kid is, if I’m so old, he’s like, 19. I’m 22 I’m like, What is this kid doing here? And the dark thing at night going and I said to him, Oh, hey, we know. Where are you going? He’s like, Oh, I was supposed to be driving a car to Indiana, and I just called the place and they canceled it, so I’m just going to because I’m just going. I go, What do you mean? Where are you going? He’s like, I’m going to take the train into Penn Station. I’m just going to sleep at the station. I go, Wait a minute. You think you’re sleeping at Penn Station, buddy, have you been to New York? He’s like, No, I haven’t. I was like, Hey, man, you can’t. It was the 80s too, where New York was super dangerous. I was like, Hey, Billy. He goes, Well, I don’t know anyone in New York. I go, Yeah, you do you know me? I took this 19 year old to my apartment. I lived in a studio with another friend. Didn’t even ask her. I mean, that is talk about feeling overly responsible for a perfect effing stranger. But I see this with high functioning codependence, where we don’t just feel responsible for all the people in our life that we love when we’re close to we feel responsible for clients. We feel responsible for, if you’re me, perfect strangers, and I know I’m not alone in that, you know, yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

the I want to go back to this idea on the on menopause, because it’s interesting, from your therapist lens, how you’re seeing this, because my audience knows I have been talking a lot about how I believe what’s happening at menopause is we it’s like a neurochemical armor is starting to come down, because we’re not just losing estrogen and progesterone. If you actually go in and you look at what those two hormones stimulate, they stimulate serotonin and dopamine and GABA, oxytocin, B I mean, you have a whole set of neurochemicals that are shifting. And what I think is happening is that all the years of people pleasing, all the years of putting everybody else’s needs ahead of your own, you actually are not neurochemically capable of doing that anymore. It’s like, this armor comes down, and all of a sudden you’re like, I’m not gonna do this. And then when you look at the brain changes that Lisa Moscone talks about, where the brain actually reorganizes itself and starts to become a brain that sort of sees a bigger picture and starts to, we start to focus more on our needs, not everybody’s needs. I think what’s happening in the mid 40s is it’s a lifetime of putting everybody’s needs ahead of our own. And we’re we just are now at a place where we’re like, I can’t do it anymore. But when you look at the spectrum of menopausal women, we got women that are the highest, the most common time for women to commit suicide is between 45 and 55 that decade. I think it’s this neurochemical armor coming down mixed with what you’re talking about, where they’re just like, I can’t do it anymore. I don’t see a way out. So they take themselves out. If you look at divorces over, over 40, 70% of them are initiated by women. So I think that actually it’s those menopausal years that you’re stepping into the truest version of yourself. So if that’s the case, and you’re you know, what can we do as we sort of go enough, I’m putting down the people pleasing, I’m putting down your needs, and I’m picking up my needs that can feel really uncomfortable, that can upset the people around us. What do we do in that situation? Expect

Terri Cole  

that when you change the relationship dances you have in your life, people are going to notice. So let’s not be surprised when people are upset that we’re not willing to do a lot of what we were willing to do. And let’s not blame them, and let’s not blame ourselves. Right? This is the human nature. When we change something, we feel threatened, especially so you’re in a relationship, you’re in a dyad with someone, and now they change, and now you’re afraid the person who’s not necessarily changing, or is, you know, experiencing the change is like, are you going to not love me, right? So I always say, Listen, just be prepared that as we change, people are going to notice, and that’s okay. So we’re not that fragile. Your relationships are not that fragile. Like it’s okay to have a hard conversation that you’ve been avoiding for 40 years. It’s okay to talk about what’s real. So the first thing I think I will instruct clients to do is we do a resentment inventory, because this is going to guide us as a GPS to the areas where we’re probably over functioning, where we need boundaries, maybe where someone’s taking advantage of us. Because part of the relational dynamic with high functioning codependency is over functioning on the HFCs part and under functioning on other people’s parts. And what happens is we could take a perfectly capable human and turn them into an under functioner, because we want things to be done a particular way, because we don’t like how not fast they’re doing those things, or whatever the reason is. So the resentment inventory, where you just listen, we all know, how do you do it? Get a piece of paper and a pen, write down the important relationships. Ask yourself, go into sort of a meditation, where am I feeling resentful? Let yourself be very truthful. Write down in what relationships with your sister, with your parents, with whoever your partner, your kids, and be honest. Because I feel like a lot of times as HFCs, we justify bad behavior from other people. We go, I mean, listen, my parents are a nightmare, but they’re so much better than their parents were, right? And we’re like, but the little kid in you doesn’t care what your parents experience was, you know,

Dr. Mindy  

right? Yeah, I mean that. And this is the interesting thing about perimenopause and menopause is that you also now have to take care of your parents, and at least I’m finding myself in that situation, and there’s resentment there. One of, one of the things that I’ve butt up against is I’ve my therapist over and over again will say to me, Well, what do you want? Like, what do you want? And that I couldn’t answer either, because I’ve been caring about what everybody else wanted, and now you’re asking me at 54 what I want, but I haven’t exercised that muscle. I don’t know what I want, and that that has blown me away again as a very confident, capable woman. How did I get to 54 and I can’t even tell you, like, what what I want, because I have always had to tell you what I wanted through the lens of what you wanted first. But

Terri Cole  

what’s so interesting limited a you’re not alone in this, but what you want, I would say to my clients, I know what they want, and I know what you want, but it’s not for us. We want peace in the valley. We want harmony. We want the people we love to thrive. We want everyone to be healthy. We want everyone to be well. We don’t want there to be any problems like we want peace, but what we don’t realize is that real peace only comes from really taking care of ourselves, right? Like so much of the time will. I don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill. It’s not a big deal, right? We’re also so let’s Yeah, let’s look at the the relationship issues that come from being an HFC. Well, hyper independence is one of the characteristics of being a high functioning codependent, where we just, we just, we just know how to do it. We just, we’re good. We don’t, we don’t need your help. It’s okay. Thank you for trying. I mean, I can’t even let, like, the I used to not be able to let the cab driver put my friggin bag in the back of the cab. Like I’d be like, I got it, but like we are the I GOT IT people, there’s difficulty for us to be vulnerable to people in our lives. When things are positive, it’s easy to be like, I love you and all that, but to be vulnerable the truth of when we don’t know or when we’re in pain, or when we could use help or support, or whatever it is, there is such a need to be in control that it makes real vulnerability very difficult. Yeah, you have the over and under functioning dynamic that we already talked about that creates a lot of resentment. And then you have the emotional labor, where we’re just doing all the things in all the places, like it’s not just the ship of the family life that we keep going. Thing, and just the house and that, like, what does the toilet paper replace itself? No, it does not. You know, just making sure we’ve, we’ve thought of all the things, but it’s, it’s more than that. It’s who keeps track of the birthdays, who’s keeping track of the who’s keeping up with the social life, who keeps in touch with the extended family, who like so much of the time. It’s us doing all of those things, and if we look at the it’s a cost, right? Let’s say we look at the cost on the relationships themselves. We are denying people their autonomy, even if we’re doing it inadvertently. There is emotional invalidation when people are like, it’s it’s hopeless. I there’s nothing I can do is hopeless, and we’re like, it’s never hopeless. Come on now, relax. It’s not that bad.

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah. It’s never Yeah, because let me tell you how to fix it. It’s not that

Terri Cole  

big, exactly. Relax. Just hand it over. I got it. It’s fine. It’s not hopeless. But emotional validation is allowing them to feel hopeless for the moment, right? As long as they’re not jumping off a bridge, it’s like, that’s how they’re feeling. And we can say, babe, I’m so sorry that you’re feeling this way. Let me know how I can best support you.

Dr. Mindy  

That’s a good statement. Where does as you were talking, I was thinking, Where does selfishness fit into this? Because, you know, again, this is such a topical, timely conversation for me, because I’ve been in this awareness of myself and really unwinding some of these behaviors. And I recently i and I’ve been standing up for what I want, like I want this, and I’m finding the people around me going, Whoa, who are you? Like, what’s going on? And then I turn on myself, and I’m like, wait a second, am I being selfish? Maybe I’m just being really selfish. And then I I’ve come up with mantras for myself, like, it’s my it this is my era to be selfish. Like I keep like, bring it no Mindy. Give yourself permission to put yourself first, and how easy it is for me to start judging myself for being selfish.

Terri Cole  

Yes, and let’s, let’s just, let’s dispel the myth of selfish sleep. Shall we? Because, yes, here’s what happens if we don’t, if we continually self abandon, we end up martyred. We’re bitter, we’re blaming other people. Nobody can appreciate us enough because we’re not giving from a healthy place. So there’s not enough, you know, accolades. There’s not enough parades that can be thrown for us because we we’re literally expecting them to fill something inside of us that only self love and self consideration can actually feel. So you don’t think that women who become martyrs in their 60s and 70s and talk about everything they did for that person that wasn’t their plan when they were 25 Do you know what I mean? They’re like, never me, but to not become that we have to take radical responsibility for our own happiness, our wants, our needs, our desires. I talk about your boundaries in the way of your preferences, your desires, your limits and your deal breakers, your non negotiables. Those are the things that make up your boundaries, but they’re also the things that make you uniquely you, and when we don’t negotiate for our wants and our desires, when we don’t tell the truth, when we don’t prioritize our preference, we’re mad that other people don’t know them. We feel taken advantage of because someone didn’t read our mind, even though that’s not a conscious thought, but that’s what’s happening. We’re mad. We feel put out by those things. So I think that really looking at that the healthiest love is boundaried love, and that you being able to take care of yourself first means you’re not putting it on your partner or your children to do for you, what only you can do for yourself.

Dr. Mindy  

I hit a spot again this summer where I went into a couple of weeks in my downtime of like crying depressed and I couldn’t quite put words to it, and what I finally realized is that depression and sadness for me was when I betrayed myself and I had this real AHA that like I’ve been betraying myself and my desires at just because I thought it was what I was supposed to do to keep everybody afloat. And as I take that back, it’s like the depression and the sadness Go away, because I’m finally not betraying myself in in that I’ve been trying to find language to explain this to my husband, to my friends, to my sister, to my parents, like all these people that I have shown up. Up to use your words as a high functioning codependent to be like, Look, right now I’m done betraying myself, and this is the greatest gift I can give myself, but I’m going to need you all just to chill out for a hot moment while I find myself. That was my languaging. But is there ways we can share as we morph into the most authentic version of ourself and break the HFC, how do we let people know, so that, I don’t want to say so that they’re happy, because I’m not trying to make them happy, but just so they know, hey, I’m on my own journey now, and I, and I would love respect for that. I

Terri Cole  

think that part of this is so common, like, we can’t wait to grab the bullhorn and be like, everything’s gonna change. Like, I just want to warn you all to know Yes, oh, gonna change. Yes, that’s exactly it. So HF, get ready. Get ready. It’s so HFC, though, new version, exactly. So HFC to be like because really you do want them to be happy. The truth is, you want their support in this. And the bottom line is, this is an inside job and a solo journey. So it’s one next right action at a time, and it’s okay if you want to share, and I share a different language in the book about, you know, how do we do it? Well, in the past, I have been willing to do these things, and right now, I’m taking back some of my energy, and I’m changing, so I’m no longer willing to do that. And if they’re mad about it, you can say, I see you have feelings. I still love you, and yet this is an important boundary for me, so I will uphold it, because I’m done self abandoning. And we don’t need them to be like, Yay, you. We don’t need them to be like, you suck. Whatever their response is, right? That is not your side of the street. Your healing comes from asserting yourself. That’s where your healing comes from. Not, not people CO, you know, co signing, what you’re doing as, like, awesome. And maybe they will, some will, some won’t. I mean, listen, some, some relationships don’t survive, right? And that’s okay too. Like this is if you are being your most authentic self, if you are building, not necessarily discovering, you know, like we have an essence of who we are, and then we have choices to make about how we’re going to be in the world. So deciding to get into recovery from being a high functioning codependent means you’re willing to slow down, you’re willing to get radically curious about your own reactions and responses be compassionate. And there’s a whole part of the book that I write about self consideration instead of self love. Because I just feel like you hear all this shit about self love, words like if you just love yourself more, no one even knows what it means. It’s not helpful. But self consideration is the opposite of self abandonment. Right where we go, Hey, do I have the bandwidth for this? More importantly, do I want to do this? And I think that for HFCs, that’s a question we never if I could, I should, and that’s it. There’s almost no consideration. But I want everyone to get it. Not wanting to do something is a perfectly good reason to not do it. Yes, right? So

Dr. Mindy  

true. So true. Yeah, so true. Talk to me a little bit about I want to come back to the title so because too much is something as I’ve gone into deep therapy over the last couple of years, that the way I the what the message I got, actually, was that I was too much constantly. So I don’t know if that’s how you meant the title to be, but when I saw your or if it’s just too much, I can’t take this anymore, which could be both ways, but that is something that I really got a hold of recently. And I think it’s a I think it’s a woman thing. It’s the patriarch, the patriarchs, like, You’re too much of this. You’re not enough of that. You You know, there’s just constant like, calm yourself down. Don’t be so emotional. Like, the ways in which we have to adapt as women to fit into society, that’s that is too much and we should be too let us be too much. Like it’s, you can flip it on both sides. So I’m really curious the title and why you chose it because,

Terri Cole  

and actually, it’s interesting. It means all of those things, right? It’s, it’s messaging that we’re too much if we’re ourselves. It’s, we’re doing. Too much, so we’re freaking exhausted and hitting a wall and just self abandoning and self numbing and can’t deal right? It’s, it’s the and part of the messaging in the book is, how do we go from too much to just right for ourselves, for ourselves, not to be palatable to the patriarchy that like, not that it’s how do I get to be just right where I have because what is on the other side of this? What is, what is the on the other side of being in recovery is emotional expansion. Is better relationships where you have more interdependency instead of codependency, where I can count on you and you can count on me, and of course, it’s still dependency, because this is part of being in a relationship, but it’s different right there. How about surrendering to what is instead of thinking that we can change reality and the other side of when you actually get into recovery, what does it look like? More interdependence in your relationships, so that I can count on you, you can count on me. You don’t have one person controlling the whole thing. You don’t have the over and under functioning going one way with interdependence, your partner may do something better than you, and then they do that. My, you know, I may do something better than my husband, and I do that, but it’s not everything, right? You have more internal expansion. You slow down. We allow our good to flow, instead of always sort of constructing, or, you know, the surrendering to reality is a part of this process too, because when you’re an HFC, you really feel like you can bend reality to your will, because we’ve been so good at doing those things. But your relationships. Think about your relationships with adult children, how much more intimate, deeper, mutually respectful they become when you stop parenting in this active way that is inappropriate if they’re in their 20s. Now I’m not saying we can never give someone our advice that they ask for it, but it can’t be the first stop on the bus, right? The first stop has to be what do you think? Because what you think matters, because it’s your life, and it matters more than what I think, actually, even if you don’t know, that’s okay, you know,

Dr. Mindy  

yeah, yeah. And I will say I have a glimmer of that with my 24 year old daughter, because she just said, back off and and then when I did, it started to heal the relationship. So it is really interesting that context. So again, this is fascinating to me, because I feel like you just stepped right into an awareness that I’ve been having about myself. I don’t know if it’s like in the atmosphere, but this was, I mean, again, so much so many ahas I’ve been having about my own life and seeing it in so many women. You’re just writing about it now, which is so cool. It’s, it’s so thank you for writing the book. You’re

Terri Cole  

welcome. But it’s so validating, because I’m really just sort of starting these conversations. It’s so incredibly validating to see how many women are like, Oh, thank God. We need this book. And, oh yes, I feel this way, yeah. And I’m not ashamed, because what I wanted to do is take the stigma off of this so that we can heal, yes, you know. And to To that end, I actually have a gift for your people. Oh, yay. Thank you. So if you can get it, it’s an HFC toolkit. So you can get it at Terry cole.com, forward slash, HFC. And this is just for those of you who were like, Okay, I’m in the beginning of this process of, I need to change a lot of things in my life. Just know that you can do it one next, right action at a time. Like, not everything is not lost. Like you’re okay and you’re going to be okay. Just I walk you through baby steps, I give you a great meditation for it, but it’s like you’re so capable. Just know this is one other thing that you will get into recovery from, if you really want to, and if you want to go get this book, because I literally walk you through the the beginning, the middle and the end of the process, how to actually do it.

Dr. Mindy  

Wow. Thank you. We will definitely leave the link there. And how do we order the book? You can go

Terri Cole  

to hfcbook.com and I’m sure there’ll be at the HFC toolkit, the Terry cole.com forward slash HFC. I’m sure there’ll be a link there as well.

Dr. Mindy  

Though, I have to ask you the last question, because it’s one that really intrigues me, because everybody answers it different, which is, what is health to you? And how do you know when you are healthy?

Terri Cole  

Health is being well enough. Metabolomix To be free. I can move freely. I can move my body freely. I’m sleeping well enough to want to go do things like it’s health is me being physically well enough to be free to do whatever the hell I want. And yeah, if you’re not, I’m a cancer survivor. I’ve had different health challenges in my life. And you know, you may have a million problems, until you have a health problem, and then you only have one problem, just that problem, yeah, so that’s that’s really what it means to me. And I know I’m healthy, especially my sleep is something I’ve struggled with a lot in my life. And I know I’m healthy when I’m getting at least six and a half hours of sleep or seven hours of sleep, like, that’s that, that’s my goal, is to get better sleep hygiene. But that’s how I know,

Dr. Mindy  

yeah, and I’m going to add to that now that health and freedom, freedom is doing what you want and not doing what everybody else wants.

Terri Cole  

I love that tie in to HFC, and it is so true, because to be free, you’ve got to know what you want. You’ve got to know your heart’s desire. And I mean, how exciting for you, and that you’re in this process now of really being able to go, what is it that makes me happy? What is it that brings me joy, not just my people being joyful or happy? You know?

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah, yeah, it’s so true, so true. Well, Terry, I again. I could talk to you forever, and thank you for writing this book. I really because you know, as I’ve walked my own journey back home to myself, I realize I’m not alone, and you have just confirmed that. So appreciate you, too, and thank you. I just hope, hope this book touches millions of lives. So

Terri Cole  

appreciate thank you so much Meg for having me.

Dr. Mindy  

Thank you so much for joining me in today’s episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we’d love to know about it, so please leave us a review. Share it with your friends and let me know what your biggest takeaway is. You.