How to Support Girls With No Rights, Resources, or Choice: Clay Dunn of VOW for Girls

Dr. Mindy  

On this episode of The Resetter podcast, I am bringing you Clay Dunn, the CEO of vow for girls. Now I want to give you a little backstory into how this conversation landed on my on my podcast radar. So after watching fast like a girl go out into the world, I started to see how many women were feeling empowered around their own bodies, and how cool a tool like fasting became because it didn’t cost money, it didn’t take time, and it could really move the needle on women’s health. And when I started to open that lens up, I started to see that there are so many areas in the world where women girls are staying in a disempowered state, and that was when Clay’s organization got brought to my attention. So vow for girls is ending child marriage for girls across the world. And what you’re about to hear in this conversation is that child marriage is not just a issue that happens in certain countries or an issue that is attached to religion. It is happening everywhere and is largely happening here in America. And so I wanted to bring clay on to talk about how we could all be a part of this solution, because we are all connected as humans, whether you have have a deep awareness of this or not, but what you’re going to hear is that the rights for for girls and boys are not the same. It doesn’t matter if you’re you’re sitting in a school and getting educated, or you are in a community where you you’re a girl and you’re going to be married off at a young age. We need to create a world where girls and boys have future opportunity, equality, and in this discussion with clay, you’re not only going to hear how once a woman, a girl, is married at a young age, and she becomes her future is hijacked by this decision, you will see that she doesn’t get an education, and if she doesn’t get an education, she doesn’t give a get a future. And what’s so shocking about this conversation is, again, many the times the person making the decision of this girl having this future that is taken away from her is the parent. This conversation will not only break your heart, but what you’re you’re going to hear is there is a solution we can all step into. And this solution doesn’t just impact these girls, this solution impacts all women. And so as you’re listening through this conversation, what I want you to hear is that we can rally around vow for girls, and we can start to create a world where equality exists. And one of the last things I want to tell you is that october 11 is International Day of Girls Day. It’s Day of the Girl and we have some really interesting ways that we can lift girls up after and hear it at the end of the conversation, because it’s a quite beautiful we came up with some pretty innovative ideas of how we can use october 11 international girls day to support not only vow for girls, but bring awareness to the fact that we are still living in a world where there is not equality. And when we free one girl and change her future, we are changing the future for all women. So I hope this conversation touches your heart. I hope that it motivates you to be a part of the change. And most of all, this is what our give like a girl campaign is about. Is about all women coming together to support each other, whether we are supporting each other in health or we are supporting each other in the freedom to choose your own future. So vow for girls. If you want to donate, please go to Dr Mindy pelz.com, backslash vowpod, and be a part of the solution, and together, we can absolutely make this change. So enjoy, and I look forward to hearing how you all receive this beautiful man’s mission and this beautiful podcast. Enjoy. Welcome to the resetter podcast. This podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself again, if you have a passion for learning, if you’re looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you.

Dr. Mindy  

Let me just start by welcoming you, clay to the resetter podcast. This This discussion is much needed for my audience. So I just want to start off by welcoming you.

Clay Dunn  

Thank you so much for having me. Really a joy to be here with you today.

Dr. Mindy  

One of the things when we started to really try to touch women through the lens of health and empower women through the lens of believing in their bodies and minds, again, is that we started to really see the disempowerment of women, and how many areas there are in the world where women don’t they can’t even, you know, access a small amount of power. And that’s when, you know, Lisa brought to our attention, vow and and child, you know, child marriage. And I got to tell you my first reaction, and this, I’m gonna be really transparent, was like, Oh, wow, is this? This is a problem. I can understand how it’s a problem globally, but this is a problem in America. Like I was completely naive to it, and it broke my heart when I when I understood that. So can we just start this conversation with like, why is child marriage such a prevalent issue on our planet right now, and how do we just shine some light on the shadow side of of our world, but also of America? Like, how did we get here? Yeah,

Clay Dunn  

I think that your your first reaction is one that so many people had, and one that I had, you know, a little more than five years ago, when I met the founders of the organization Docker girls that I run, where child marriage is one of these things that I knew happens in the world, but I had no idea that it happens at such a staggering rate. I mean, this this year alone. It’s crazy. This year alone, more than 12 million girls will become child bride. That equates to a girl every three seconds. It’s an extraordinary number of futures that are being compromised day after day and week after week. And you know, it happens on a truly global scale, right? Like a greatest concentration in Latin America, Sub Saharan Africa and across Asia. But it does happen here in the US. It’s legal in more than 30 states. It’s legal to, yes, legal in more than 30 states in America.

Dr. Mindy  

It’s legal in more than 30 states to to marry somebody who’s underage. Yes,

Clay Dunn  

correct, and it looks different state to state, but in I think it’s still in 35 ish states, still very much legal. It’s, of course, happening in the US at a much reduced rate than what we see in other parts of the world, but still happening to far too many girls. Because our basic belief right is that this is a decision that anyone should and everyone should be able to make for themselves. And if you we know from both common sense and tons of research that if this one decision, if you’re robbed of this one decision, it changes so many of the other opportunities that you have in your life, it alters and takes away so many other decisions that you have So explain

Dr. Mindy  

to me, and I’m just going to go through the American lens right now, how, how does a child all of a sudden fall into a marriage she didn’t want to be a part of like, you know, as a parent, my first brain is like, where’s the parent? And then, you know, as somebody who, like, tries to understand the culture, I guess my next thing would be, is there is this a religious thing? Like, is it attached to a religion? And I mean that with deep respect, I’m not trying to, you know, say that religion’s the problem, but I would say that’s where my brain goes to is like, Oh, this must be people who are a part of certain religions, and where are the parents?

Clay Dunn  

Yeah. So this is what’s a bit difficult to come to terms with around this issue, especially as we think about it on the global scale. Like you asked your first question, like, why is this happening? It’s such a big rate. And unfortunately, the real answer there is, it happens at such a high rate because people don’t believe that girls are deserving of the same choices that boys are like this, like ingrained, wow, sort of bias against women and girls that that someone might know better for them. That’s ain’t really, I mean, it gives me chills. Just thinking about breaks my heart. It brings our so what we see happening around the world and why girls become child brides is often because it’s like what we’ve always done, right? This, like social, local, social norm that persists where? Well, I I have an early marriage. Your grandmother had an early marriage. Of course, you’re going to have one. We also see that a lot of I really believe, especially for meeting lots of parents around the world and talk. Them about this issue, that no one does this with ill intention, like they’re primarily doing it when they they’re worried about everyone. Everyone’s going to get fed. They’re often like struggling with extreme poverty. They’re living in a place where either conflict or climate change is causing a lot of uncertainty in their lives, and suddenly they’re looking for potential solutions, and marrying off children is one of the solutions that they they turn to. And you know, it’s not, while this, like, I think global gender inequality is like, kind of the underpinning, yes, you know what it what it looks like community. Community is different. In some places. It is a religion in some in some places, like, we were just in the Dominican Republic visiting local organizations that we’ve been funding there for more than five years. Like, more vividly than other places I’ve seen in the world, like it was about a real fear of a girl’s sexuality and that she may become sexually active and then pregnant and dishonor the family. And so we’re like, encouraging her to go ahead and get married while she’s like, 1516, years old. Wow. And those

Dr. Mindy  

protection so the parent sees it as protection in that, in that very often, yeah. And are there? Are there dowries that’s associated with it like, or is each case unique?

Clay Dunn  

Each case is unique in some in some places, there are things that we would refer to as dowries, like I had the opportunity a little more than a year ago to go to Nepal to visit local organizations that we found there, like doubt dowries was something that was much discussed, but it is it’s illegal in Nepal to do this, and so the dowry is, like, secretive, like, under the table, like, you know, there’s not, it’s not happening out of open I think, I think money is certainly a factor because of the poverty that is is linked to its late places.

Dr. Mindy  

And are there hot spots, again, I might like, in America, are there hot spots in certain states that have this more because I think, like the other part is that I’m seeing this through is like, if it’s acceptable in a community, then it’s like, if you’re born in a female body, you just know this is probably going to be your fate, because you see everybody in that community going down this path, and so I would think then there would become this moment where a girl just doesn’t know any different because she was born into a community that that’s that this is your fate, and they she doesn’t even have another option.

Clay Dunn  

Yeah, I can’t speak to you about, I don’t have the expertise about, like, hotspots in the US. I will say that the research on what has happened in the US over the last decade, on the issue, shows that in the majority of cases, there’s a large age gap, young girl, older man. And you know, I can tell you that I know that it’s still legal in California, for instance, and like with from a population standpoint, I would imagine, just because they have had such a large population, I would imagine that the problem is more pronounced there. Because of that, there’s an excellent group of organizations who are going through state by state, like closing loopholes and changing laws, and they’ve done it in more than 10 states over the last maybe three to four years, and and they’ve been working on a federal law that’s in committee in Congress right now. They’re working with several senators around the framing of that that they hope to bring forward over the next six months that could make a real difference, sort of, across states, not, not having to do the state by state model.

Dr. Mindy  

So So is this like a loophole from if I thought having sex with someone under 18, if you were over 18, I thought that was illegal. So this would be like a loophole, except if you’re married, then you can that that’s okay, correct?

Clay Dunn  

And you see in stories about child marriage in the US, you see, like, uh, often it’s happening because there’s a pregnancy involved. There’s something that’s been happening that it’s like the marriage is being used to cover Yeah, you know something, yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

yeah. Like, it could be ancestral. It could be Yeah, wow. Talk to me about how this dramatically changes a girl’s life. I mean, I can, from a female perspective, only imagine what my how different my life would have been if I had been forced to marry at 16 or 17 years old like but what are what are the ramifications, not only for the for the girl, but I bet there’s like, even economic ramifications. Like, I don’t think this is just absolutely a problem for the girl. This is a problem for the culture. Yeah,

Clay Dunn  

absolutely. I mean the number one ramification that comes to mind that if a girl marries early, it highly likely. Like, almost certain that that’s the end of her education. Like becoming, becoming a bride means no longer being a student, yeah, and that’s something we see in communities around the world and and so any kind of girls are out of school, their risk of child marriage or increases, okay, the other and tied to that, like, you know, less education that you have, less earning potential that you have, yeah. So you know, long term, your economic opportunity is decreased. There are also, though, like, very serious health complications related to this, because a girl who marries while still a child is much more likely to have a child while she is still a young woman, and before her body is ready, and early childbirth causes lifelong health complications for many women around the world. And I would say those, those are the sort of biggest impacts, you know, I also think there’s a there’s a family and community impact, because, I mean, something we clearly see around the world is that when women do have money, they invest it in their families, they invest it in their communities. And you know when, when women have less money, less spending, and you know, it’s, it’s a loss of contribution, both to their families and communities. Yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

you know, it’s interesting, because, again, I feel like I’m in the business of women’s empowerment. And one of the things that I have watched as I’ve researched so many different topics is that there’s a couple of different ways that you can disempower a woman very quickly. And the first is education. That is, or one of them, it’s not even the first one of the one of the biggies is just make sure she’s not educated, and then take her bottle body rights away. And if you take those two rights away, you you control her. And we I’ve also looked at the the pattern of history around a patriarchal world that we’re living in, and I think it’s really important when we talk about a patriarchal world, that it’s just power over it doesn’t mean men are bad and women are good, like it just means we have a structure that has power over both men and women. And I’ve really dove into trying to understand, well, what would be the alternative to a patriarchal society, and I found a really cool definition of a matriarchal society, which is power within, and if we can power, empower people within, then we are now both men and women living in a matriarchal society. It’s literally, that’s that simple. So I love that, right is it’s like that way. It’s not like, we’re not fighting man woman, we’re just saying we all want to live in a society that that allows us to have power from within, and that’s the matriarchal lens. So talk a little bit. I don’t want to leave this point before we talk about the solution of, how does this affect our society to allow young girls to continue to be disempowered this way, like, what is the cultural global impact? Because I think when people listen to a podcast like this, there can be a sadness of like, oh, this is this is heartbreaking. But what I want us all to understand is this is heartbreaking, and it affects your life too. Even if you are not exposed to some child bride, it affects the culture, which is affecting you, which is affecting your health.

Clay Dunn  

Certainly. I mean, if we’re sleeping in a world where where a girl isn’t able to make basic choices about her future. Yeah, you know the choice about whether or not to continue school, whether or not to you know to date and fall in love, whether or not to marry if she chooses. Yeah, you know whether or not to have children, whether or not to have a career, right? Like, that’s a world in which, you know, a stickering number of girls are living in compromise states, right, like, and without this sort of basic autonomy to say, like, this is what I want for my life. Yeah, you know, I was with a grant in in Nepal. And, you know, we think about, I don’t know, you probably know some teenage girls like in your life, right? Yeah, friends are a teenager.

Dr. Mindy  

I’ve got kids that were teenagers,

Clay Dunn  

right? And it’s like, I don’t know. We’re used to dealing with, like, sort of empowered teens, yes, who have a lot of opinions? Yeah, oh yeah. They do Yeah. You know, one of one of our grantees said, like, she said, Clay, like these girls don’t even know that they can dream, yeah. Like they live in a situation where, like, no one has ever told them you can be something else. You can be somewhere else. Yes, right? It’s just like so much about this, about this programming is opening eyes to there’s a reality beyond what you can see right in front of you. And, you know, we want all girls to be able to have those choices,

Dr. Mindy  

yeah, and, you know, there’s one of the concepts that I teach in all my books, and I’ve mentioned it on 1000 videos and podcasts, is this idea of what we call the hormonal hierarchy, which is like our sex hormones are dramatically affected by insulin production, and insulin production is dramatically affected by cortisol, and cortisol can be calmed by oxytocin. So when I look at 12 million girls being married off, what I see is a world that’s saturated in cortisol. And the more cortisol that we have, saturation we have in the world, the more it affects us individually on a hormonal level, and really to restore our own sense of Hormonal Health, we need to bring more oxytocin into the picture, where we’re loving people and we’re supporting people. We’re lifting people up out of troubling situations like and when we do that, collectively as humanity, on an individual level, our bodies win. So this idea that we’re separate from each other is is erroneous. So when I hear staggering statistics like this, I’m like, we got to solve this. We got to help women, because that we are just going to perpetuate the cortisol saturation that so many people are already living in. So that’s my that’s my neurochemical lens on it. Talk a little bit about vow and like, what you all are doing, and what I’m really hoping with this conversation, and I’ll say it in my intro, is that I just don’t want us to to see this as like a car crash that we’re driving by and go, Isn’t that sad? I want us to see that our own individual mental and physical health is dependent upon helping you all solve this problem. Talk to me a little bit about what vow for girls is doing.

Clay Dunn  

I really appreciate that, and you’re using your platform to draw attention to this issue, because it is one that very much needs more attention, more eyeball, more heart, more funding, like if we’re going to see a different outcome for girls. So I run this organization, vowed for girls. We were founded almost five years ago by two people who had been deeply involved in the global movement to end child marriage and had been successful in, you know, bringing together groups around the world who were focused on the issue, making it part of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, like really getting it on the agenda. But they really came to believe that real change on this issue was not going to happen unless it was happening in communities themselves, because someone at the UN or you or I, we may have lots of ideas about what what should happen in communities, but the real truth is that that change doesn’t happen in a place like, you know, Uganda or India or DRC or wherever, unless It’s people who are from those communities like really champion a different outcome, right? And so they created Val for girls to raise awareness and funding and to be able to put that money directly in the hands of local leaders who are running effective but like massively underfunded programs and organizations so largely local women who are directly engaging in the lives of girls and have been doing it for quite a while and are really in a position to be those change agents in their communities.

Dr. Mindy  

I’m just curious, like I’m thinking, what does it look like to change this in a community, because you need to change the you need the change the community. You need to change the family, you need to change you need to help the girls see this is not right. Like that seems like a lot of people involved in the change.

Clay Dunn  

It does seem like a lot of people, and that’s why proving this model has been so important over the last five years, because, you know, we’ve invested in in the in the first four years, invested in around 175 or these local organizations. And we’re in places where the issue looks really different. So like somewhere in the Dominican Republic, where we have around 30 organizations that we support, we intentionally chose and invested in leaders who wanted to do that kind of community engagement that you’re talking about, right? So they’re they’re working with schools. They’re working with parents themselves. They’re working with the police, with local religious leaders, sort of building this consensus that our community is going to be better if schools are. Able to make their own decision about about marriage, got it and seeing great success in that, and sort of building consensus at the community level, where it goes from well, of course we’re going to marry our girls all to well, of course, we’re going to let our girls make their own decision about this. And we’re seeing that real change on the community level, place to place. So much of this, though, is really important, engagement with caring, yes, like it’s something that across our grantees, no matter whether or not they’re working online, things related to education, like helping girls stay in school, or things related to economic opportunity, like helping girls learn to make money so they can contribute to their to their families, or things about their health, making sure that girls know how pregnancy happens, how to avoid it, right? All of these things, they’re engaging parents, because parents are really critical to seeing this change, because they’re so often the one that that’s saying yes or no, right?

Dr. Mindy  

I mean, that’s what I’d like. I literally how I started this conversation was like, What parent would do this? And then now I’m seeing, they’re seeing it as protection, which, you know, then I also go to, well, you know, at a time in America when contraception is being put out as a as optional and maybe not available for for women, that seems like now we’re only going to see A spike in more of these child marriages, because if we can’t make contraception, you know, easy for girls to get, the pregnancy rates are going to go up, which means parents are going to double down on this. And I this is just topical right now because of the political scene here in America that if we don’t have access, if girls don’t have access to contraception, we got a bit you all you know in your organization now are going to come back and be like, it’s not 12 million anymore. Now it’s like 24 million because parents are going to double down on this protection.

Clay Dunn  

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, because so many of like I was, I was with a group last year, and we were talking to parents about what’s their experience around their their girls being in this group, and, like, the parents, like, sharing with us that they were learning things about sex that they had never known. Oh, my God, things are in this, yeah, in this program, and things about their bodies that no one had ever told them. Like, now my daughter is the one who’s, like, educating me about this. You know, I, I agree, like, if that, like things like contraception being used to oppress, like, and with holy conversation, contraception being used to oppress, that’s exactly the kind of thing we’re addressing. In terms of major girls are not only aware, yeah, of of how their bodies function, but also have the resources to be in the driver’s seat, if you will. Of those decisions,

Dr. Mindy  

where does that education happen? Because it’s not happening in schools. So where is a girl gonna get like, I remember when my kids were in teenagers, I’m in Silicon Valley. I raised them in Silicon Valley. There were, like, really cool programs that you could, like, send your kid to, and they would teach them everything, you know, if you were a parent, that was like, I don’t want to sit down and have this conversation. There was like, okay, they can teach them everything from contraceptive to contraception to respecting your body to how to have great sex. Like, just, let’s just bring it out into the light. And it was really popular here in Silicon Valley, in families that were wanting to help their you know, both, and there was a girls class and a boys class. So how do how I’m now thinking just about communities that don’t want to talk about it, schools that are not going to put it on the on the curriculum, where, how do these girls get this kind of access to information?

Clay Dunn  

Funny, what you described seeing in Silicon Valley is one of the ways that girls are getting this access in communities around the world. So one of the number one interventions that our community partners are implementing are the creation of girls clubs or girls leadership clubs, sometimes Boys and Girls Clubs together, largely that function as after school type activities. But regardless of where they happen and when they happen, the things that I see being similar, as I visited so many of them, is giving girls a safe space where they can come together, where they can learn about everything, from what their rights are to some basics of financials and money to like, sort of hands on skills that they could then use to like, make things that they could sell for money, like, you know, on an art, But largely though they give them a space and a mentor figure that they can both share about their lives and learn and if their future is somehow at risk, they have someone to go to like we were in the poll and I met this young woman who said who like she was the. 15 years old, she very matter of factly said, I’ve been in this program for two years. Last year, my parents came to me and she told me, they told me that it was time for me to marry Wow. I said, that’s a violation of my rights, and I knew that because of this program. And I told them, if they married me, I would go to the police. And they said, Oh, we won’t do that then, very matter of fact, very matter exactly like so I think, like one of the biggest things that’s happening in these programs that we support, whether or not they’re safe spaces, or whether or not they’re like sports or drama clubs that are teaching girls about their rights while building their agency. It’s an opportunity for them to learn, like, I am a person with rights. This is what my like, my like, I know, oh, I didn’t mention this, but in all these places where we’re working, the practice is illegal. It’s just happening at a tremendous rate. So so, you know, they learn about the rights, and they know what to do if someone is infringing upon

Dr. Mindy  

them. Yeah, that. And what I hear in that that’s power within that’s it. You know, it’s and this is, this is the interesting concept that I’ve been really trying to teach to women, is that there’s so many places we give our power away. And for like, the lens that I’ve been teaching my following is like, we give it away. When we go in the doctor’s office and the doctor said, and we say, we like, list off a bunch of things that symptoms that are really hormonal changes that are going on in our body, and the doctor writes us an antidepressant prescription, like all of a sudden we that’s where our power has been taken away. So when you educate a woman and you say, hey, when you go into the doctor’s office, here’s the questions you want to answer, you want to ask. Here are the things you want to think about. If they hand you an antidepressant, like, stand up for yourself there. And what I heard is, that’s exactly what you’re doing. And we could, we could put that across all these disempowering places. Is like, if we’re going to bring the the the and I want to think of another word other than power, but bring the awareness of an equality of women up. It’s going to actually, what I’m hearing that you’re doing is it starts with the woman. It doesn’t start necessarily with pointing fingers at the culture. It starts with teaching

Clay Dunn  

the woman, yeah, exactly, because I think that no one’s going to win with the pointing fingers, yeah, approach, yeah. Like, it’s why someone like me can’t, like, show up in a community be like, you gotta change this. Like, never gonna work, yeah? Like, absolutely not. And so this, this while this sort of girl centered, and then consensus approach takes more time and isn’t, like, you know, you know, it’s social norm change, right? We’re leading. Our general partners are leading, yeah, leading the social norm change in their communities, and seeing real change. But we believe that this is the only way that it’s going to stay. Because, like, once, once you stop this practice, you’re not, you’re not going to be starting again.

Dr. Mindy  

Like, right? But once you stand up to your parents and you say, You can’t marry me, what else can you know that that world do in her life like, that’s exactly that’s like, the door in to empowering a woman now she gets to, you know, do that over and over and over again, which is

Clay Dunn  

we, yeah, agreed, we were in Dominican Republic, and met with this moment, and we’ve been funding for five years. And I was like, you know, what’s the biggest change that you have seen over the last five years? And without, without missing a beat, she said, five years ago, the girls would come into this program. I couldn’t get them to say a word, and now they won’t stop telling me what they think. Oh,

Dr. Mindy  

yeah, right, that’s dangerous to the society. Yeah, keep talking. Yeah, right, exactly. I mean, it’s much easier to keep us quiet. So wow, that’s so cool. What do you do about the girls that already are married? Like, I like, it’s really this has been helpful for me, because I now see your long term vision, and it’s so in alignment with women’s empowerment for me, and what I’m trying to do, like, my win is when a woman comes out of the doctor’s office and she feels like she was an equal, she feels like she had a collaborative conversation, I’m like, yes, because you you educated yourself, and now you can stand up for yourself. So I love this vision of, let’s change it, at the girl, at the change the girl and empower the girl. What about the girl that’s already in the marriage? What about maybe she’s 1020, years into the marriage? Like, is there any help that we can give her or that woman? So,

Clay Dunn  

so what I can speak to is that so many of our local partners are working to make sure that girls who do become child brides still have opportunities, they still get to finish school, or girls who may have a child early like well. Wake of the pandemic in Uganda, a lot of girls became pregnant while schools were closed. They had the longest school closure in the world. And one of our partners, who we fund there, who’s more of an advocacy organization, forced a change nationwide that. Had said that pregnant girls could not be in school. And like it was opened school for 1000s of girls who had become pregnant, like during the during the pandemic. Wow. And so, you know, I, I definitely see and hear partners talking about, who are, the phrase Exactly. But like, supporting firms decisions to leave unions, like different points. But that’s not a sort of core thing that our grantees are focused on. Like, primarily the it’s hard, and yeah, really hard to use about prevention.

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah, right, yeah. So, so on this topic, it’s way easier to to prevent than to actually pull them, dismantle them from the marriage, yeah, yeah. So talk a little bit about the biggest challenges that vow for girls has. And, you know, how can we support you? How can we lift you up? Like, what, you know, what, what may be some of the things that you have coming down the road. Because I’m really hoping people in my in my world, see why it’s important to support you all, yeah,

Clay Dunn  

I mean, I think that the biggest challenge overall is one of awareness, certainly right people not realizing that this is such a global problem that happens on the scale, but it does, and I’m hoping that through this conversation and other ways that you know your listeners might interact with us, that they see that not only does this exist, but there are also real ways that I could do something. Yeah, you know, we provide a mechanism to empower in crucible, local women who are real heroes to me, and because they are standing up to often, like centuries of tradition in their in their communities, and saying, like, we deserve different and better than one. And you know, we’re a mechanism through which to directly support those organizations. We also like for readers for whom this is important, like we run a model where foundations and generous individuals pay for the operating cost of the organization, so that 100% of everything is donated goes right to these community organizations. And so I’d say, like, awareness is a big challenge, I think, to just like, you know, build it like a challenge of the last five years has been like building sort of a community at scale around around this work like, we’ve been able to to work with, like so many incredible people who, like, we just work with brands who make us part of their their their business, like, we work with individuals who are heading celebrations themselves that might make say, like, oh, instead of gifts, like, why don’t you donate to this cause? And also just people who directly support us as part of their personal philanthropy. And you know, while while money, it’s like,

Dr. Mindy  

Well, every nonprofit, you can say it, every nonprofit wants money. I mean, this is why we’re doing give. Every nonprofit wants money. Something

Clay Dunn  

exists is to Yeah, to support these local women, these local leaders, and it’s the dollars make the difference. Yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

yeah. You know, I was sitting here thinking, you know, you’ve only been around for five years, but you know what you need to do is, once you get those girls empowered, you need to put them on your on your staff. You need to, you need to bring them in to vow for girls and let them run this.

Clay Dunn  

I agree,

Dr. Mindy  

like they’ll make the best employees, because they will be so, you know, so connected to the to the cause, one of the one of the challenges, or one of the, I don’t know if it’s a challenge, but I can just tell you, as somebody who has donated money to organizations like this, where it’s just so heartfelt, there’s such a it’s not like I’m just writing a check, like I’m my heart is breaking as I’m listening to this is, how can we see the progress you’re doing? How can we feel, sort of watch the the emotional journey that you are all on, so that we feel like we’re a part of the solution. Like, I’ll give you an example. Like, you know, if you go down and you know, one of the organizations that were give like a girl is supporting is an organization that goes into Mexico and builds homes for single moms. And so there’s an actual, real, tangible like do Gooding, kind of feel there. I can imagine there has to be something like this. Like, if I donate money, is there a way for me to see that progress, to feel like I’m a part of this incredible mission you all are on?

Clay Dunn  

I ask myself this question all the time, yeah, around. How do we make this work? Sort of did the intangible yes for people, right? And but some of the things that we’ve been experimenting with are sort of virtual visits to communities where we get to hear directly from local leaders, local girls, the programming and like. But you know, people are doing it when. Virtually and joining us for conversations around that a lot more of hearing directly from girls themselves about their lives, what they want, like actually, today and the rest of this week, we’re doing some of that work with girls in Uganda who have been in programming for five years, hearing about their experiences, what they want for other girls in their communities. And I’m, I’m constantly trying to think about, like, how do we, how do we make this, like, come to life for people without them having to travel to, like, a tiny community in Nepal, like, in the middle, right, takes a really long time to get to, yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

is there a way I just, it’s interesting. I just was with a friend and who’s a big podcaster here in LA, or when I was in LA, and she would, she was telling me that she was thinking of adopting a senior that doesn’t have any family, and, like, actually like going, I guess there’s a program where you can go and adopt a senior, and you can sit and like and be with them because they’re lonely. I’m thinking, would it be, is there a way where you’re like, Hey, I’m going to give X amount of money, and then a girl is going to give me updates of one specific girl is going to give me updates on her life, and then I get to follow that life and know that I made an impact in that.

Clay Dunn  

Yeah, I think some organizations have done that. I honestly, I can’t speak to the model. I know that there are complicated thoughts about that, okay, yeah, but I think the, I think the intent behind the question is the right one, right about, like, how do I as a donor see the impact of what I’m doing? Yeah, and continue to feel excited about it. Want to bring other people into it. Want to continue. I mean, I think this is a big question that philanthropy is wrestling with, about how to do that in a way that sort of meets like, where consumers are on other things. Yes,

Dr. Mindy  

right, yeah. The other thing that I had heard in, but then I heard you guys did away with this, was people could put it on a donation, on their registry when they’re getting married. Oh, no, you still have that.

Clay Dunn  

We we still do that. We just do it a little differently than we used to. So for people who are, if anyone’s listening, they’re planning a wedding or any other kind of celebration, we’d love to work with you on that. We’ve been able to work with 1000s of couples now around moments of celebration where they say, either in addition to or instead of gifts, make a donation to balcony. Girls like pretty much saying like in celebration of the choice that we’re able to make, I want to support the choices of others. Yes, and what we do today is we create really simple but personalized charitable registries, and you know, they can have your photo a message from you. As a couple, we have incredible stories of couples who have been inspired to include us, their guests, being like, really generous around those moments, and, like, wanting to support a church that they feel deeply about.

Dr. Mindy  

Yeah, when I heard that, I was like, That’s genius, because you’re using the you’re using the choice of marriage, this beautiful thing that so many people enter into with so much happiness, and you’re shedding light on the fact that not every girl gets to make that choice. So, you know, even I’m even thinking like, when I start the next wedding I’m going to go to, I’m going to whether they asked or not, I’m going to say I made a donation to you to vow for girls, you know, in honor of the choice you got to make. And I love that, yeah. Like, nobody’s gonna be like, what did you what’d you do? Like, I think everybody will be like, I see a really large amount of my following doing that, because it’s not just giving you all money, but it’s really giving awareness.

Clay Dunn  

Yeah, definitely. And besides weddings, we’ve done some collaborations around big anniversaries, retirement, graduations, birthday other people have looked for some last year, created a tennis tournament like using the same model only to support us. So do we fund in that way? It’s a different way to involve people as well, like and I think so many couples who are, who are celebrating, like, often you don’t really want anything, right? Yeah, especially depending on your life stage, as I do, I need another toaster, right? Exactly

Dr. Mindy  

like, do I need more stuff? Like, you know? And I’m not a stuff person, so I, you know, I, I’m, you know, they just came up with a new love language, and it’s called it’s there’s two new love languages, and the one that I resonate with is experiences. And I’ve come to this place in my time, my point in my 50, almost 5050, year, that I really like having experiences with other humans, and I would rather. Spend money on that than on any any physical item. And you know, we have a very altruistic following. We have a lot of post menopausal women whose daughters are up and out of the house, or kids are up and out of the house. And I really am going to highlight this for our community, because I think there’s as much joy in giving something to vow, as if you gave, you know, an object to somebody, I think, and then everybody gets the joy, like you get the joy the person receiving it gets the joy. The girl that gets pulled out of this situation gets the joy like there’s more more of the joy to go around in this kind of gift.

Clay Dunn  

Absolutely, I love that. And we all need more joy. We

Dr. Mindy  

all need more joy. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. Well, clay, I just, you know again, like, thank you for what you’re up to.

Clay Dunn  

Thanks so much for bringing me on, and thanks for highlighting us through give like a girl, yeah? Really an honor to collaborate with you. Yeah?

Dr. Mindy  

So, okay, speak a little bit about, you’ve got a big event coming up, or you’re, you’re part of International Day for the girl. Of is it like for the girl? Is that what this is? Yeah,

Clay Dunn  

absolutely. So october 11 every year is International Day of the Girl. It’s a day to celebrate the power of potential of girls everywhere. Wow, for Belfor girls, it’s always a really important time to shine light on our work, to lift up the stories of change that are happening around the globe. This year, we have people who support us from around the globe holding their own girls night campaigns in October and November, like just bringing together women that they love and men who love women in support of our work, like over drinks or dinner or business, whatever they choose. But International Day girls, october 11, later this week. Amazing.

Dr. Mindy  

So Okay, talk to me a little bit about what that would look like like if I have a group of women that I’m like, Hey, ladies night out on october 11, we’re gonna celebrate International Day of the Girl like, Would we then, like, gather women together and be like, and we’re all gonna donate, so we’ll go have drinks and everybody donate. What X amount of money is that? Is that kind of it’s just gathering people together to bring awareness to to the empowerment of girls.

Clay Dunn  

Yeah, right on. So you say to your friend, hey, we’re going to happy hour on this date. It could happen anytime this fall. We’re going to happy hour on this day. Here’s a link that I’ve set up for our girls night, like I invite you before drink to make a donation with me and support of this cause that I care deeply about. And then you just get together and you have a great time. We have for people who want to do events and want to have sort of a short program. We have a guide for that, and the way to make it really easy, but largely it’s about like enjoying the joy of being together and with one another and just making a bit of an impact alongside it. Yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

I love I love it. I love it. I mean, this is something that I you know what I was I call them the mama bears. The mama bears are going to grab this idea, and it’s, I think it’s the mama bears that are going to change the world, honestly, and the mama bears could easily gather all the other mama bears and and do something as simple as raise awareness for you all on that spectacular day. So we will leave, we will leave the link on how you learn more information on that in the notes and and so hopefully people will engage in that. And october

Clay Dunn  

11 is really, like, sort of kickoff, like, you know, the season to support girls for us. So like events will happen anytime that the rank of the year. Yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

amazing, amazing. Yeah, that’d

Clay Dunn  

be great.

Dr. Mindy  

Clay. I can’t let you go without asking my final question that has that will be really interesting to hear what you have to say on this one, and it’s very and I say that just because we typically talk about health on this podcast, and yet, I see this as all a part of our health. So this is a large reason why I wanted this conversation. But my question to you is, what does what’s the definition of health for you? And how do you know when you’re healthy?

Clay Dunn  

The definition of health for me is when I feel really in balance, yeah, with myself, yeah, I and that for me is a combination of the sort of, the sort of, or the combination of hike, the food and exercise. Yeah, I’m taking in my own attention to my mindfulness and, you know, building space for quiet and reflection and, like, really, about listening to my body and how I’m feeling and what it needs, yeah. And I think, you know, it’s someone who does, like, a lot of travel for this work and hundreds, it’s, like, really easy to follow the balance. So it’s something I’m constantly thinking about. Yeah, I don’t. Why? What does balance look like for me when I’m on a plane, versus, like, at home and like working there, and something I’m constantly working on? Yeah, yeah, we all are we

Dr. Mindy  

all are? You know what I’m also going to put into that, something that I have told my kids over and over again, is that one, if you want lasting happiness. Stop thinking about what you’re going to get in life, and start thinking about what you’re going to give in life. And I really think that again, you know, as as you know, being so intimately involved in vow for girls, just being in the in that service, that place of service, has to be a huge health and happiness driver for you.

Clay Dunn  

It absolutely is, yeah, amazing. Well, clay,

Dr. Mindy  

I could talk to you forever. I hope. I really hope we meet one day, and me too, yeah, I’ll let you know when I’m coming to California. Yeah, please, please do. I would love that. I will and tell everybody you know your whole team like thank you, and we hear you, and we want to support you, and we just appreciate what you all are up to.

Clay Dunn  

Thank you so much. It’s a joy to meet you. Yeah,

Dr. Mindy  

thank you. Thank you so much for joining me in today’s episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health. To you. If you enjoyed it, we’d love to know about it, so please leave us a review. Share it with your friends and let me know what your biggest takeaway is. You